my prize winning 45 smoothbore saa

[reinhard]

....

[reinhard]

more pics

[oldcruiser]

Very, very nice! Congratulations.

[reinhard]

thanks old cruiser,i think this was the deal of a lifetime

[Bill DeShivs]

If the letter is for the SAA, you have a big problem. The gun has b een refinished.
While the gun could probably be granted amnesty, smooth bore pistols are NFA items, if the barrel is under 16 inches.

[reinhard]

::::

[muddober]

Originally Posted by Bill DeShivs

If the letter is for the SAA, you have a big problem. The gun has b een refinished.
While the gun could probably be granted amnesty, smooth bore pistols are NFA items, if the barrel is under 16 inches.

Bill, I always respect your opinion but why do you think the gun has been refinished. It appears to me to be original in that it has all those little fine hairline scratches that only age brings to nickle. As for NFA, wouldn't the fact that it is pre 1899 negate that issue.

My biggest problem with the deal is that if reinhard traded off all those other engraved Colts that I have drooled over the last few days for this one gun I would have much rather had the engraved Colts. Original or redone they are beautiful and I would love to own all of them than this one Colt smooth bore and all.

Ron

[reinhard]

hi ron, on a given point you have to make a decission what you want to collect,fancy newley engraved colts or the original stuff ?
think i am going for that last one,you always can buy engraved guns but i think this gun has to much history to let go,i see things different now ;too bad i could not keep the guns , thats life my friend making sometimes you have too make choises

[deadin]

I think what Bill is basing his opinion is that the Colt letter says the gun was shipped with a blue finish. The letter is either incorrect or the gun was refinished after leaving the factory and therefor cannot be considered as having the "original" finish.

[reinhard]

this is a page of the colt encyclydia

[deadin]

So which one do we believe, the "Colt Encyclopedia" (compiled by ????) or the official Colt Factory letter??

[muddober]

Originally Posted by reinhard

hi ron, on a given point you have to make a decission what you want to collect,fancy newley engraved colts or the original stuff ?
think i am going for that last one,you always can buy engraved guns but i think this gun has to much history to let go,i see things different now ;too bad i could not keep the guns , thats life my friend making sometimes you have too make choises

I understand and please don't think I fault you for your decision but for me I would enjoy looking at and fondling your four engraved guns more than I would this one gun. I guess I am not so much into rare as I am art. That is a lot to say for a guy who owns a one of kind LeFever three barrel gun which I might add is also a work of art.

Enclosed is a picture of an early second generation gun I use to own. Pay very close attention to the ejector rod end, it has been skeletonized to slide over the cylinder base pin so it will fully eject.

Ron

[reinhard]

nice gun and what looks to me real ivory ,just love these old genuine grips Ron, but the barrel seems shorter than the 4 3/4 or is it my eyes
take a look at my favorit sidearm a late 2nd gener.and i adaptad it to fit my small hands,this is a real workhorse and nothing more cal is 44-40

[reinhard]

and of course it is not a winning colt ! the whole coltdisplay stand was rewarded

[reinhard]

can i see some pics of the rifle?

[oneshot onekill]

Man, I gotta tell ya after reading the Colt Letter and the highlighted section in the Colt Encyclopedia there's DEFINITELY something "fishy" about this SAA. The letter states "blue" finish. The gun should be blue... No exceptions that I know of! If it were sent to London to be nickeled it would NOT say "blue". Also, the Colt Encyclopedia states "rubber" grips. It has definitely been changed from it's original configuration and that really hurts the collector value.

Even if your information is correct, there is no corroboration in the known text books and that leaves too many questions and speculation.

Sorry man... I hate to go back on what I said earlier but I didn't have all of the information and wanted to tell you this ASAP so hopefully you can get this figured out.

[deadin]

I'm curious as to just what the "Colt Encyclopedia" being referenced is.
Who published it, and when? I see other reference in it to Doc Carver, Buffalo Bill and Annie Oakley, all members of the Wild West Show at that time. It's almost seems as if it is "suggesting" that these guns belonged to them but doesn't come right out and claim it. If it could be attributed to Cody it may be worth the price paid but it will take more than being listed in some "Encyclopedia" of unknown provenance.
I would be suspicious that these guns were fancied up by some London entrepreneur hoping to cash in on the popularity of the Wild West Show that was touring Europe at the time. (Kind of like the "action figures" that follow movie releases today.) This would add value, but I don't think all that much.
This needs a lot more research. I might suggest you also post over on the Colt Forum, there's a good number of experts there.

[oneshot onekill]

For those interested, here's something I found on a website for Julia Auctions. This pistol is in their archives:

"1523AB. *COLT NICKEL SINMGLE ACTION REVOLVER WITH SHOULDER STOCK; POSSIBLE BUFFALO BILL COLLECTION. Ser. 128863. Cal. 45 smooth bore, 7 1/2” barrel. This lot accompanied by an original factory letter that the finish was blue, that it was shipped to the Colts Patent Firearms Manufacturing Company the London Agency; 14 Pal Mal London, England October 10th, 1889. It was at this very time that Buffalo Bill was just across the channel at his Wild West show and at about this same time of the famous Paris International Exposition. Buffalo Bill was purchased a number of Colt smooth bore revolvers from the Colt manufacturing company. He and some of the other “expert shots” who performed at the time usually used shot and thus smooth bore pistols so they could not miss! It is believed the pistol may have been made for Buffalo Bill because of his frequent usage of this type of weapon and because of the near proximity and the time that it was delivered. However, the Paris Exposition was also taking place at the same time and it is known that Colt prepared a wide array of firearms that were shipped to their London office for use in display at the Paris Exposition. The Information on this serial number exists in the Colt Peacemaker Encyclopedia, Vol. 2 on page 350 and 410 by Keith Cochran and specifically states “128,863 7 1/2.45 smooth bore, nickel finish, rubber grips, British proof marks, extended hammer screw for shoulder stock, shipped London Agency, October 10th 1889, Buffalo Bill was in Paris at this time for the Paris International Exposition.” This gun retains British proof marks on the barrel and cylinder with nickel finish. The finish is definitely factory quality and was applied after the proof marks. The shoulder stock has been modified by adding a walnut plate and grinding the buttplate flush with the sides of the stock. The case is modern and has been made to accept the gun, shoulder stock and cartridges. Owner has put together a number of other items with this lot which include a Paris 1889 Exposition medal with the name Rafael Arenas, an article by Buffalo Bill from Colliers Weekly, April 13th, 1901 and a Buffalo Bill’s sweepstake dime novel. CONDITION. The revolver appears to be unused and almost of all the nickel remains. The stock retains most of its nickel except on the sides of the buttplate where it has been ground to brass. The case and other articles are in fine condition. 4-41826 (20,000-25,000)"

So maybe there is some provenance here. Still scares me.

[oneshot onekill]

By the way, Just thought I'd share... here's my most recent "Colt" acquisition. Not quite as romantic as an SAA but it's quite rare and may actually be "unfired":

It's a Model 1905. It was the first Semi Automatic Model that Colt ever made in 45 ACP. This one is possibly the best one in existance.

[deadin]

One-one,

Good research!
I'm with you, possible, maybe even plausible. Or just happenstance? Definitely sounds like the "assembly of artifacts" was done not too many years ago.
I noticed that Julia was very careful not to make any claims that couldn't be verified. Is it worth 4 modern engraved SAA's + $4,000? I guess it depends on how much it rings your chimes.

BTW: Did the archive have a "Values Received" section? If so, did it sell and for how much? (and when)

[oldcruiser]

To help shed a little more light.

At that period in time Colt had two manufacturing facilities, one in the USA and the London location (established 1853). The London factory resulted, in part, due to the overwhelming response the Colt Exhibition of 1851 received at the London Crystal Exposition Palace. The London factory was opened nearly two years prior to Colt's completion of their new USA facility in NH.

The London Agency was the distributor for the London factory. The factory did produce firearms, e.g. London Navy Models, etc., and also received shipments from the USA.

Shipments of completed revolvers from the USA would ship to Colt's London factory. Once there, they would be made ready. Made ready would involve inspection, GB proofing, caliber adjustments if required, e.g. Eley, etc., special finishes, basically made ready for shipment to, or to fill orders from, the London Agency.

One interesting item involves the Model 1860 trigger guard. Colt USA produced the 1860 with a brass trigger guard. Colt London would replace the trigger guard with blued steel due to the fact the British customers thought the brass looked out of place. Colt was in business to make and sell firearms.

Colt USA letters reflect what processes (think build sheet) were completed, and to whom the piece was shipped to (distributor). Colt London would in turn have a build sheet listing what had been done to the imported item. It was not uncommon for a Colt USA revolver to be sent to Colt London and then be worked on again prior to their shipping to their distributor (London Agency) for customer sale as ordered. As far as the rubber versus wooden grips, that could have transpired at the London agency upon customer sale and inspection.

Not all shoulder stocks were made by Colt USA or Colt London. Shoulder stocks were often made by other vendors for Colt. (I have seen shoulder stocks that sold for much more than the revolvers they were with.) The same holds true for wooden presentation boxes.

The pics appear to show a nice piece from the period, and should bear further inspection and research. The dollar amount invested seems fair enough, based only at seeing the pics. If the revolver, shoulder stock, and presentation case are all Colt manufactured, the trades he has invested may very well be worthwhile.

[oneshot onekill]

That's great information oldcruiser! Now I'd have to ask if there is any way to get the London "Build Sheet" to validate the changes made to the pistol? Without such documentation the time and reasoning behind the changes are still speculation and value is difficult to ascertain. All in all I think it's an extremely interesting SAA and I really want to believe the history but I've been stung one too many times to be so trusting.

[deadin]

I don't know about Colt, but S&W's main agent in that time period was M.W.Robinson in NYC,NY. Many guns sent to Robinson's were "embellished" by the distributor with pearl grips, engraving, etc. These embelishments are not considered "factory" by collectors and will not letter as such. Although two identical guns engraved by Nimschke may be identical in quality, there is a fairly large difference in value depending on whether the factory commissioned the work or it was commissioned by the distributor.

[oneshot onekill]

Originally Posted by deadin

One-one,

Good research!
I'm with you, possible, maybe even plausible. Or just happenstance? Definitely sounds like the "assembly of artifacts" was done not too many years ago.
I noticed that Julia was very careful not to make any claims that couldn't be verified. Is it worth 4 modern engraved SAA's + $4,000? I guess it depends on how much it rings your chimes.

BTW: Did the archive have a "Values Received" section? If so, did it sell and for how much? (and when)

I dug around their site but was unable to find the actual selling price. The auction estimate was $20,000-$25,000 if I read it correctly.

[reinhard]

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