Help w/three Antique European handguns WW2 bringbacks

[katzenplatz]

Hello!
A friend of mine has these three handguns which he brought back from Germany at the end of WW2. These were found in a gun store in the bombed ruins of Halle, Germany (later in the Soviet Zone of Occupation.)

Our questions are....
1. What are these? Can anyone tell us the makes & models?
2. Are these worth anything to collectors today?
3. Would these classify as "antique & curio" and what restrictions would there be selling them, especially through the mail/ups/etc?

If you need more pictures please let me know.

Thank you very much for taking the time to look at these!

The first one has an octagonal barrel and is marked "J.J. Rissack Brevete". The loose piece is the trigger guard.

[katzenplatz]

The second is a good looking six-shooter which is marked with a crown over the letter "G". Hopefully it shows up in the pics. Caliber is unknown.

[katzenplatz]

The third is salty folding trigger revolver which is marked "cal. 320" on the chamber and has a serial number 2834 below the chamber. It's also proof marked with a crwon over what looks like the letter "C" but it's so small it's difficult to say with certainty.

[Jim K]

The last revolver is of a type common in Europe around 1900; they were the equivalent of our inexpensive revolvers of that era and sold for about the same price, around $4-5 or the European equivalent. The center one is a pinfire revolver, made a few years earlier, but of the same general type and quality. The engraving would have added $.50 to $1 to the cost.

Today, the last gun is not worth much, more because of its condition than its type. In good condition, they bring $100 or so, in top condition around $200. The middle gun would bring around $500 due to the engraving; a plain one would be worth half that. Prices are retail, not what a store would pay for them.

The top gun is one I have never seen before, but it appears to be a "parlor" pistol of a type common in Germany in the period before WWI. I won't even hazard a guess on value, especially with the trigger guard broken off.

The crown over G is a German proof mark for guns with rifled barrels.

Jim

[56/50]

# 1 ??, # 2- Pinfire possibly Belgian, # 3- Bulldog, it should say on the top strap it's country of manufacture, mine say British Bulldog, American Bulldog,etc.! The Pinfire is the same as mine except mine is not engraved and is a 12mm! Joe

[RJay]

Originally Posted by 56/50

# 1 ??, # 2- Pinfire possibly Belgian, # 3- Bulldog, it should say on the top strap it's country of manufacture, mine say British Bulldog, American Bulldog,etc.! The Pinfire is the same as mine except mine is not engraved and is a 12mm! Joe

Possible Belgium?? with German proof marks? Added: but as pointed out, also has Belgium marks.

[AaronN322]

Your pinfire revolver is German, and made between 1891 and 1939; probably closer to the first date. The "crown over the G" proofmark tells me that. Are there any other proofmarks you can show us? I would be able to give you more info from them. Check on back of cylinder (open loading gate and turn cylinder and look there), check on barrel, and if you want, take grip off and look for a serial number on frame.

It is also a military style pistol due to the easily assessable and useable cartridge extractor, and the ring on bottom of grip

[AaronN322]

Your top gun was made by Jean Jacques Rissack between 1850 and 1857 in Belgium. It is a needlefire gun, probably .32 caliber (.32 needlefire). It is the most valuable of any of these.
Here is the patent for it:


And here are a couple eley needlefire cartridges.


As well as a sectioned one:

[AaronN322]

Here are some more needle gun cartridges.
From left to right: The Dreyse needle fire cartridge for the German Dreyse IG M1841 rifle, The French 11 mm Chassepot Mle.1966 Needle Fire cartridge.

[katzenplatz]

Wow! Thanks guys for all the info! I certainly appreciate it.

I've never seen cartidges like those for the needle fire. Fascinating!! The education never stops.

I'll see what other proofs & marks on the pistols we can find.

I guess at least one of these (the JJ Rissack needle fire) would qualify as antique/curio with the other two being possibly but maybe not.

[lefaucheux 54]

The second revolver is a pinfire revolver made in Belgium .
If you have a good look to the pictures you can see the belgium proofmark ELG in a ovale that means it's made before 1891 ( after that it has a crown above the ovale)
The G with a crown above is the proofmark of the contrôleur
G with a crown means made before 1877 ( after that it becomes a star )
So your pinfire revolver is NOT GERMAN , but from Belgium made between 1865 and 1877

LF
www://lefaucheux.net

[Jim K]

Very interesting on the needle-fire. That explains why the hammer appears to be attached to the firing pin, necessary for withdrawing the needle before the breech can open.

Jim

[AaronN322]

Bob emailed me with info on more proofmarks on the pinfire:

oval with these inside: E G * L. *
This is the definitive Liege proofmark, used from February 20, 1811 to July 11, 1893

AF
This means it was made by Belgian maker, Auguste Francotte *fixed*

crown over G and crown over D
Since from the other proof marks we now know it is undeniably Belgian, then the crown over the G is an inspector proofmark. This was used from 1853 – 1877.

[Jim K]

Nitpick, but I think you have Francotte's names reversed.

Jim

[lefaucheux 54]

Its not a Francotte made pinfire revolver ............!!

The marking of Auguste Francotte is like this and I don't see that on the gun .....



LF

http://lefaucheux.net

[AaronN322]

Originally Posted by lefaucheux 54

Its not a Francotte made pinfire revolver ............!!

The marking of Auguste Francotte is like this and I don't see that on the gun

He emailed me with additional marks:

Here's what I found:

very few markings. what I can find are on the strap sides and visible only when I take the grips off.

AF and possibly a smaller H lower right of the AF

5 over a rectangle and FF on its side next to the 5

crown over a D (or 3 tick marks, but I'm guessing a crown)

On the outside of the strap, on the forward side "My Lilly" in script.

that's all I see.

the bore looks to be approx 9mm, it's hard to measure because the lands and grooves don't match up side to side (ie, a land is across from a groove).

I'm guessing Belgian made, approx 1860 or so. It's engraved and looks like it was plated, either nickel or silver at one time. The bore is poor. I've got the lands looking ok, but still some junk in the grooves. Trigger pulls and hammer falls but cylinder no longer rotates and it seems to be missing a trigger return spring. Also missing one screw holding the trigger guard.

I believe it belonged to my great grandfather, Bodo von Buelow, who was in the Prussian army but how he came into possession is anybody's guess.

Thanks,

Bob

I took another look and found a marking on the cylinder just forward of the ratchets.

circle or oval with these at 12, 3, 6, and 9 o'clock inside: E G * L. * = star
so E on top L G next and star on bottom

hope that helps.

oh, yeah, missing front sight and lanyard ring too.

Bob

B on front of cylinder

possible a mark on rear of barrel assembly near where the push rod comes thru that might just be a scratch or it could be an index mark. actually it looks like a little golf flag on its side. not sure what it is.

Bob

So, yes I still believe it is a Francotte revolver

[lefaucheux 54]

Sorry , now I read the message above , I think you're right ...
We didn't had the infomation before ...........

LF