SHTF Scenario

[Old Grump]

Guns are evil, you should stock up on coffee, donuts and flowers. Make friends with all the unhappy dispossessed. They will appreciate it and will be sure to leave you unmolested.

I am evil so I have a fairly large stock of various and sundry items that will go bang and the fodder to make them do so. No single answer as to what is best and whoever tells you there is will be lying to himself and to you.

First rule in a gun fight is have a gun, any gun.

[Jeff Midguard]

here's anoher thought... Maybe we should start teaming up with others who are particularly good with one type of weapon. Instead of trying to master every type ourselves. The perfect team would consist of one long range sniper w a faster firing mid-range rifleman & a combination of shotgun/handgunners. If the poop hits the blades,we won't last long as individuals.

[Old Grump]

Originally Posted by Jeff Midguard

here's anoher thought... Maybe we should start teaming up with others who are particularly good with one type of weapon. Instead of trying to master every type ourselves. The perfect team would consist of one long range sniper w a faster firing mid-range rifleman & a combination of shotgun/handgunners. If the poop hits the blades,we won't last long as individuals.

You just described the section of highway I live on. All my neighbors but one going 1 mile west and 6 miles east has at least one gun in the house, most are hunters and at least half of us are ex military. Between goose hunters, turkey hunters, raccoon hunters, coyote hunters, prairie dog hunters, pig hunters and deer hunters we have archery, pistol, (me), rifle both small bore and large bore, and shotguns covered. Neighbor boy is a champion archer and I used to shoot long range and high power on my service team.

We already watch out for each other, if we see a strange car in the yard and the owners car isn't there we check it out. Usually harmless but a couple of times people left in a hurry when they saw cars coming up the driveway ruining who knows what plans they had. Neighbor just showed me a 250 yard target he shot with a 3" group out of his 270 and I have my Wby 300 so I think we have the long range stuff covered. Best part is one of my neighbors half a mile down the road is a retired doctor, another is a retired veterinarian and my sister is a retired nurse. I think we have medical covered.

Then their is the range of skills from electrician, to farmer to construction carpenter to cement worker to machinist we have most of the skills required to fix most anything that is broke. Sadly there are no lawyers among us so I don't know how we could possibly organize...........................

[obxned]

A very wise man once said you could handle almost any situation with a .22, a 30/06, and a 12g shotgun. While I would add an EBR and a pistol or two to that, those words are still pretty true today.

[Jeff Midguard]

Old Grump;
I think organization will actually go smoother without Lawyers.

[Old Grump]

Originally Posted by Jeff Midguard

Old Grump;
I think organization will actually go smoother without Lawyers.

I was biting my tongue when I wrote that. Look at the presidents we have had since Reagan left office and compare the occupations of Democrats who were president with the occupations of Republicans who were president. Then look at the leadership in Congress and see which party has lawyers in leadership roles and which one has non-lawyers in leadership roles.

Ronald Reagan - R non lawyer
George H. W. Bush - non lawyer
Bill Clinton - D Lawyer
George W. Bush - R non lawyer
Barack Obama - D lawyer

Same with Congressional leaders, Lawyers on Democrat side and non-lawyers on Republican side.

Give me a butcher or mechanic or farmer, especially if he's been a veteran no matter what branch of service or what his or her MOS was and I'll go into the woods if necessary or hole up behind barricaded windows with confidence. Can you see a Lawyer standing sentry duty on a hill top protecting your six while you are gathering crops or cutting wood. Give me a man with callused hands and dirty fingernails when there is something hard and heavy to be done.

[keepitlow]

Originally Posted by Old Grump

You just described the section of highway I live on. All my neighbors but one going 1 mile west and 6 miles east has at least one gun in the house, most are hunters and at least half of us are ex military. Between goose hunters, turkey hunters, raccoon hunters, coyote hunters, prairie dog hunters, pig hunters and deer hunters we have archery, pistol, (me), rifle both small bore and large bore, and shotguns covered. Neighbor boy is a champion archer and I used to shoot long range and high power on my service team.

We already watch out for each other, if we see a strange car in the yard and the owners car isn't there we check it out. Usually harmless but a couple of times people left in a hurry when they saw cars coming up the driveway ruining who knows what plans they had. Neighbor just showed me a 250 yard target he shot with a 3" group out of his 270 and I have my Wby 300 so I think we have the long range stuff covered. Best part is one of my neighbors half a mile down the road is a retired doctor, another is a retired veterinarian and my sister is a retired nurse. I think we have medical covered.

Then their is the range of skills from electrician, to farmer to construction carpenter to cement worker to machinist we have most of the skills required to fix most anything that is broke. Sadly there are no lawyers among us so I don't know how we could possibly organize...........................

good work...you may need the team...

http://www.survivalblog.com/2010/03/...rcycle_cl.html

[Hatch]

Palmetto...

I would put a .22 rifle and pistol very high on my list. A ruger 10/22 or a Marlin [insert model here] are going to be great. If it's tube fed and bolt action, you're even farther ahead of the curve... fewer points of failure like magazine or action failures.

I would also put a 12g shotty HIGH on the list. 100 rounds at wally-world for 22 bucks gets you 100 rabbits or dove, or whatever you're shooting at, if you're good with it! 5 rounds of slugs or 00 buck and you've got the same gun doing short range defense, and home invasions are increasing, not decreasing... knowing where you want a slug, or a bunch of a 32 cal pellets can make a big difference...

A high power rifle like a Savage .30-06 when I bought one 12 years ago was about $350 with a tasco scope and case... I've taken elk and deer with it, it's definitely accurate enough, Ammo is plentiful and that makes it cheaper and accessible compared to hybrid and specialty loads.

You can get a Rem 700 in various calibers.. optics etc will run it all up in cost...

It really boils down to... what do you want?

A gun is a tool. What do you want the tool to do? Do you want to shoot dove, quail and pheasant? .22 or .308 isnt gonna get the job done as effective as a 12g.

Do you want to shoot deer in Ohio where there's 30 yards of clear range from a tree stand? a 12g is still your best bet, use slugs

Do you want to shoot elk or deer in a state where long range shots are normal, say 200-500+ yards? get at least a .270/7mmMag/.30-06/.308 those are fairly common for big game rifles, you have a chance of finding a trading partner for ammo then...

A .45 auto is hard to beat for stopping power, a wheel gun has functionality too, but rounds like .357 mag are actually useless in short barreled handguns.. accuracy and energy suck... 9mm are great for short range personal protection but if you live in a state where hi-cap mags are frowned upon you may not have that option, also... more bullets sometimes tempts people to do things like pray & spray...

So... whats your budget? You have to prioritize your perceived needs vs your available cash...

12g shotty
.22 rifle
.45 auto
.308 rifle

1k rounds of each


That's how I would start today, if I just had an "Oh ****" moment and realized I have nothing and dont know anything....

[Night Driver]

Every vehicle built after the mid 1970's has, at a minimum, an electronic ignition and voltage regulator. Any nuclear scenarios would have an EMP suffecient to kill most of the circutry in gasolene powered and electronic controled fuel injected diesel vehicles along with most generators and all radios, cell phones and anything else with a transistor or printed circuit type controls in the country.

You won't be able to run and you won't be able to hide wherever you go. And forget about having enough food for any length of time.

If chemical and biological agents are involved then the survivors will be the real losers. Even a natural disaster such as major earthquakes, volcanoes and asteroid strikes will ultimately deliver the same results. The only things you can adequately prepare for are the small time messes. Like fires, floods, tornadoes and hurricanes. All regional in scope and therby survivable. Anything worldwide or even continental will end civilization as we know it now. It really sucks but thats the way things are. I hate it but that doesn't change a thing.

[Hatch]

Originally Posted by Night Driver

Every vehicle built after the mid 1970's has, at a minimum, an electronic ignition and voltage regulator. Any nuclear scenarios would have an EMP suffecient to kill most of the circutry in gasolene powered and electronic controled fuel injected diesel vehicles along with most generators and all radios, cell phones and anything else with a transistor or printed circuit type controls in the country.

You won't be able to run and you won't be able to hide wherever you go. And forget about having enough food for any length of time.

If chemical and biological agents are involved then the survivors will be the real losers. Even a natural disaster such as major earthquakes, volcanoes and asteroid strikes will ultimately deliver the same results. The only things you can adequately prepare for are the small time messes. Like fires, floods, tornadoes and hurricanes. All regional in scope and therby survivable. Anything worldwide or even continental will end civilization as we know it now. It really sucks but thats the way things are. I hate it but that doesn't change a thing.

I disagree with you on several points...

You can run, if needed, that's not my personal plan, but you can buy a VW bug or something that's an old truck which could withstand an EMP blast.

You can store enough food to survive. Not if there's an asteroid or comet that turns your hemisphere into a molten slag ground, but yeah... if it's just economic collapse... first off, you only have to survive the locals and then the locusts when they realize THEY dont have food. Storing a year of food is not really a big deal... water is a big deal, have you thought about capturing rainfall? Based on my roof in my area I can expect to harvest 7000+ gallons a year... now my problem is rain water storage!!! HOWEVER! knowing that I only have to survive the locusts, I'll have time to sort that out as long as locusts dont burn my house down.

You know the old joke about two hikers that are in the woods and encounter an aggressive bear, and one puts on his running shoes and the other says what are you doing? he says... I dont have to outrun the bear, I have to outrun you...

Same thing goes with zombies/locusts/refugees... sucks to be them. which is why I would like to do everything possible to not be in that situation before it happens.

[Regular Joe]

There are a coup;a' scenarios that have not been covered here:
Oakland, Kalifornistan has set a precedent that merits SHTF status. They have started firing their police force. What real alternative does Joe Citizen have but to become Joe Vigilante? By all means, all persons who live in a place where the police have been fired need to get their home defense plans in order.
Scenario 2: Sept. 26, 2010, the building freeze expired on the West bank in Israel, and settlers immediately moved in with bulldozers and concrete. This canceled the whole peace process, and gave Islam the green light to carry on with Jihad. Has anyone noticed that America has been totally infiltrated with Muslims? You can bet your last 55 gr. Spitzer that once war is declared in the Mid-East, there will be terrorism on American soil like we have never seen.
As for personal armaments, just look at any soldier, anywhere on earth. They have a rifle of some kind, that is almost always used in semi-auto, and a semi-auto pistol (if they're lucky).
Assuming you have some knowledge of anatomy, and are very familiar with the Ruger 10/.22 CRR carbine, this can be a great urban weapons load:

Load the carbine with Aguila Interceptor or CCI Velocitor, and you have something "extra" over a standard .22. Practice double taps. I use ONLY the factory 10 round rotary magazines, because I like things that work. With a heavy duty fanny pack, it's very easy to carry 100 rounds in magazines, and 1,000 loose rounds for quick reloads. A .22 rifle can be used to great effect. If a guy is hit with one double tap, he's either dead, or well aware that you are the wrong guy to pick a fight with. If he keeps coming, break out the Glock.
If that's not enough, this little system is nearly impossible to beat:

The Yugo underfolder is enough gun to stop cars. It's not light, but it will last forever. If you know how to use these two weapons, there are very few people on earth who will choose to stand and fight against you, if they are able to remain standing.
By all means, team up with as many people as you can. Do understand that if an organized military force has it in for you, you are going to lose, no matter what you have stashed, or what you have planned.

[Jeff Midguard]

The object is not always to "win", but to make the other guys pay an extremely high price for whatever they gain.

[Jeff Midguard]

I've never been a subscriber to the ".22 is adequate and everything else is overkill" school of thought. Not even a big fan of .223. If the military encourages 2 to the heart and 1 to the head, it's probably time for a larger bullet.

[Regular Joe]

Originally Posted by Jeff Midguard

I've never been a subscriber to the ".22 is adequate and everything else is overkill" school of thought. Not even a big fan of .223. If the military encourages 2 to the heart and 1 to the head, it's probably time for a larger bullet.

I've seen this 3 shot BS being pushed for a long time, in a lot of places, and I've even seen people practicing it on stationary paper targets. They take several seconds to do it, and then gloat at their "mastery".
With .223, the military has to use what they get. You and I have the option of loading 64 or 65 gr. soft points that will expand reliably down to around 2,200 fps. Here is a very useful collection of ballistics charts that can help to put things into perspective:
http://www.shootingtimes.com/ballistics/
Notice that 64 gr. bullets generally retain 500 ft./lbs. of energy out to about 300 yards, where they're still going about 2,000 fps. Beyond that, anything from a .223 is only going to poke a clean little hole that won't make any more difference than being hit by a .22LR.
I say that a scoped .22LR is effective within 75 yards with the most powerful ammo, with proper shot placement and 2 shots fired as fast as possible. The bad guy doesn't have to be killed. 2 fast shots to any major joint, or the neck or head will end the threat to you. He can still shoot back (maybe), but you can surely put distance between him and you. In a situation of general chaos/anarchy, where you are not likely to be dealing with any more than one or two assailants, this is a viable plan.
Of course, if it really comes to this, I'll opt for the AK if I can get to it.

[Old Grump]

He can still shoot back (maybe), but you can surely put distance between him and you. In a situation of general chaos/anarchy, where you are not likely to be dealing with any more than one or two assailants, this is a viable plan.
Of course, if it really comes to this, I'll opt for the AK if I can get to it.

Kind of what my 10 gauge is good for. Shooting it is more fun than watching a barrel full of monkeys with one coconut. I want boogerman ducking and praying not shooting back. By the time I have fired the 10 gauge a couple of times there won't be any reason to expend any of your AK ammo. Get the fire hose and clean up the mess.

[Regular Joe]

Old Grump, I hope to meet you for some of the fear and loathing in Las Vegas, but your 10 ga. won't reach any farther than my 870. That's why I got the AK. By the time you've fired a coupla' shots from that thing, your shoulder will be part of the mess. Maybe if you just stand on some kinda' turn table when you fire, it'll spin you around about 30 times, but it won't hurt.
No need for the fire hose. We have lots of Grackles here, who like fresh meat in little pieces.
I've seen your posts on other forums. If TSHTF, I hope we understand really soon that we're on the same side!

[Jeff Midguard]

Shooting Times does have a lot of good ballistics info. For a point of reference it is commonly recommended that you have at least 1000 fp of energy to kill a deer. Assuming it takes roughly the same to take down a person you would need at least a 55 gr .223 bullet to be effective past 100 yds. None of the ammo listed would work at 200.
That's about where you lose velocity for expansion also. Might work up close, but I would still prefer a larger projectile. Your AK would be ideal out to about 150 yds. Beyond that, something in .308 or so. I certainly wouldn't encourage anyone to confront an armed attacker with a .22.

[Regular Joe]

We run into some academic differences here. You say that one needs no less than 1,000 ft.# in a rifle bullet, while others say that any more than 700 ft.# is wasted in a pistol cartridge. Compare that to a shotgun blast, where there are just a good many holes being poked into the bad guy.
In my tests with wet phone books, I found that the wound track from a double tap with a .22 rifle closely approximates that of a good JPH, from a 9mm. A .22 caliber bullet is the same dia. as a pellet of #4 buck shot, but is ballistically far superior. I wouldn't suggest that one rely on a .22 as their sole defensive weapon, but if that's all you have at the time, it can serve you well, if you know where to put the bullet, and always fire more than once. Hit a knee, and he can't use that leg. Hit a shoulder, and he can't use that arm. Hit him anywhere, and he's gonna' get really sick, really quick. For the most part, the average "evil doer" is not the same class of soldier as the combatants of the last civil war.
As for being "limited" to 150 yards, it gets hard to say whether one should be shooting or putting more distance between himself and the opponent. In a military engagement, where the objective is to over-run and decimate the enemy, one might continue the fight. In a clash between Joe Citizen and one or more gang bangers, it would be stupid of me to stand instead of run, and it would be stupid of them to close the distance, once they knew that I'm shooting accurately.

[Claude Clay]

no deep thought here, but as i am located 7 miles from an inner-city, i would stay in place till they had all trapsed past my place. evaluate the situtation (what happened/is now happenning/likely to occure short & long term). i'm able to convert my oldest car to not-high energy operation/no computers. if social unrest caused by EMP than im headeed to vermont.

45acp Kimber with its red-dot attached gets me 6" at 100 yards--same if i change to its 22lr slide. rem 700 in 308 also is 6", though now its at 1000 yards. p3at for a hold-out gun.
my wife would what she does best: 20 gauge pump, BHP and a NAA 22lr for a hold-out gun

[The_Rifleman]

Originally Posted by Jeff Midguard

Shooting Times does have a lot of good ballistics info. For a point of reference it is commonly recommended that you have at least 1000 fp of energy to kill a deer. Assuming it takes roughly the same to take down a person you would need at least a 55 gr .223 bullet to be effective past 100 yds. None of the ammo listed would work at 200.
That's about where you lose velocity for expansion also. Might work up close, but I would still prefer a larger projectile. Your AK would be ideal out to about 150 yds. Beyond that, something in .308 or so. I certainly wouldn't encourage anyone to confront an armed attacker with a .22.

I killed a deer with my 357mag at 65 yards, the energy came to less than 400ft-lbs yet the bullet passed through breaking a rib on the way out.

Claiming the AK can't go beyond 150 yards is absolutely false. The AK 7.62x39 round is ballistic-ally equivalent to another underrated round, the 30-30, (which I happen to reload for.) By you own "1000 fp of energy to kill a deer" benchmark, my load of choice will be viable at twice the distance you claim. Of course, if I go by tried and true killing energy, (less than 400ft-lbs,) about 800 yards.

But... energy isn't what I look for when judging effective range. I go by velocity, specifically when the bullet drops below the speed of sound; whereas accuracy will diminish greatly... Which is around 650-700 yards using the Hornady 150gr SST with a muzzle velocity of 2170fps. At that distance it will have an energy of what my 357 has at 25 yards using 158gr bullets, (450ft-lbs or so.)

There is a lot more to ballistics than citing a chamber dimension then proclaiming a specific effective range.

[Old Grump]

Originally Posted by Palmetto

There are a lot of crazy theories of what is going to happen to the US. Many are saying that the economy will crash and our money will be worth nothing. Then our society will dissolve and lawlessness will rule.

I know that something is going to happen if we don't get this debt under control.

People are saying on various blogs that they think that China, North Korea, Iran and Russia might try to pull something while we are in Kaos.

What guns do you feel are essential for survival and self defense in such a scenario. I think that a .22 is a good survival rifle and ammunition is cheap and plentiful.

Getting back to the poor forgotten OP he made the suggestion that a 22 would be a good survival rifle and in that he is correct. I also shoot it a lot and I have more than three tims as much 22 as I do all my other calibers put together. Beware the old country boy in is bib overalls and denim jacket. You wont see him in the woods but he will see you no matter what camouflage brand Boogerman is sporting. He can pick a boogerman off at 100 yards, get 2 or 3 more shots off and people won't even know they are under attack untill bodies start falling or bleeding and they head for cover. Old man in denim jacket backs away to his fall back position because he isn't about to stand and do combat with a squad of ne'er do wells. Jump him on his home ground though and forget the 22. Any gauge shotgun at 40 yards or the old deer hunting rifle daddy gave him when he was 12 out to 200 yards will make boogermen very unhappy. 30-30 or .243 or 300 Wby mag, it doesn't matter what he has in the closet as long as he can shoot it.

By the way my 10 gauge has a 36" barrel, a full choke and a beautiful butt pad. It is no problem getting off half a dozen shots and still be able to function. Little tender the next day but still functional. Can't say the same for the 30-06 or the .348 or the 300 Wby. M1 Garand yes but one of the bolt actions with the hunting loads I use, Whoa Mama.

[Regular Joe]

Well Gentlemen, the proverbial "S" may well be in the process of hitting the fan. It's only the first stirrings of a story, but on this site:
http://www.debka.com/
we read that Ahmeni&*%$^^jad has put Israel on notice to expect an attack in early October (Right NOW), because the Stuxnet worm has been traced to Israeli origin. Keep an eye on this. When Israel committed this cyber attack, it was an act of war, aimed at disabling the Iranian nuclear program. It crippled millions of defense and industrial computers throughout Iran. If this expands to a clash that includes US involvement on behalf of Israel, we can expect terrorism from the huge Muslim populations in America and England. Make all preparations for very heavy weather.....

[duane5157]

First off most of the ninja warriors here would **** their pants if taking fire. Secondly you use what you have or yu takewhat you need. If the shtf you need to be on the offensive. Just remember a kid with a knife can kill you just as quick as an adult. If you have to beat a man to death with a stick then thats what you do. Remember most people would rather die than think. Now that I stirred the pot, lets hope you all never have to go into combat, cause it aintt like the movie. Duane 5157

[Hatch]

Originally Posted by Regular Joe

Well Gentlemen, the proverbial "S" may well be in the process of hitting the fan. It's only the first stirrings of a story, but on this site:
http://www.debka.com/
we read that Ahmeni&*%$^^jad has put Israel on notice to expect an attack in early October (Right NOW), because the Stuxnet worm has been traced to Israeli origin. Keep an eye on this. When Israel committed this cyber attack, it was an act of war, aimed at disabling the Iranian nuclear program. It crippled millions of defense and industrial computers throughout Iran. If this expands to a clash that includes US involvement on behalf of Israel, we can expect terrorism from the huge Muslim populations in America and England. Make all preparations for very heavy weather.....

Yeah but isnt this the same lunatic shitbird that went to the UN and said he had a halo or something? And he's all buddy buddy with our other good friend "Hello President" Chavez...

I mean really... nothing has changed, if he wants to attack Israel... roll the dice and take the chances... we're obligated to defend them and we've got resources in place to do exactly that. I think he'd like to provoke an attack like Iraq got prior to their reactors going live... and then be on the world stage with ZILLIONS of inspectors counting body parts and none of them saying anything about Iranian nuclear ambitions...

it's a setup... a PR gig. he's not that bright.

[Hatch]

Originally Posted by The_Rifleman

I killed a deer with my 357mag at 65 yards, the energy came to less than 400ft-lbs yet the bullet passed through breaking a rib on the way out.

Claiming the AK can't go beyond 150 yards is absolutely false. The AK 7.62x39 round is ballistic-ally equivalent to another underrated round, the 30-30, (which I happen to reload for.) By you own "1000 fp of energy to kill a deer" benchmark, my load of choice will be viable at twice the distance you claim. Of course, if I go by tried and true killing energy, (less than 400ft-lbs,) about 800 yards.

But... energy isn't what I look for when judging effective range. I go by velocity, specifically when the bullet drops below the speed of sound; whereas accuracy will diminish greatly... Which is around 650-700 yards using the Hornady 150gr SST with a muzzle velocity of 2170fps. At that distance it will have an energy of what my 357 has at 25 yards using 158gr bullets, (450ft-lbs or so.)

There is a lot more to ballistics than citing a chamber dimension then proclaiming a specific effective range.

AK's actually need range to BECOME effective... thats why mother russia switched to the AK-74. There's not enough energy delivered on target with the 7.63x39 at standard combat ranges, they decided to copy us and go with a lighter round that drops energy on the target at shorter ranges.


That doesnt mean the other poster is right though.. AK will ruin your day at 300 yards, and a lot further if the shooter is any good.