Remington Rand .45 Cal Demonstration Model - Worth - The Firearms Forum

BBQFISH · 08-18-2010, 10:35 PM

I received a hand me down 1943 Remington Rand from my grandfather with the only marking being a number of 132 on the right side. Left side has Remington Rand Inc, Syracuse,NY, USA. My understanding this may have been a demonstration model for the company. Is there any way to determine if this was a demonstration model who was it presented to (number 132 must tell us something). Any confirmation on the demonstration model story being true would be welcome.

Appears to have never been fired. No rust.

Any information would be appreciated.
BBQFISH

woolleyworm · 08-19-2010, 04:59 AM

Have any pics? Does it function and have you fired it?

TheGunClinger · 08-19-2010, 05:33 AM

Ser#s from 1-17250 are 1912 Colts and then there is Remington UMC 1918 with Ser#s from 1-13152. Odd. There was alot of mixing of parts back then.
In 1943 the R/R Ser#s ranged from 916405-1041404 and then 1279699-1441430 and 1471431-1609528.

deadin · 08-19-2010, 08:31 AM

Where are the markings you mention? Is the "Remington Rand" on the slide and the serial number on the frame?
If so, what other marks are there on the frame? Could be that it is a built gun with an after-market frame.

Jim K · 08-19-2010, 10:50 AM

It is possible. According to Clawson, Remington-Rand made some demonstration guns numbered from 1 to about 145. That is aside from the approximately 100 experimental guns with "ERRS" numbers.

Those guns were not numbered in the R-R government numbering series that GunClinger cites, were not marked as U.S. Property, and were not delivered to the government. They were later presented to employees and officers of the company.

If possible, can your grandfather document how he came by the gun, if he was a R-R employee or got it from someone who was. This is a case where there is a high possibility of fakery, so any documentation will be very valuable.

If genuine and documented, I would WAG the value at $10000, maybe more.

Jim

BBQFISH · 08-19-2010, 02:44 PM

Here are some pics of the gun and the markings.

RJay · 08-19-2010, 03:47 PM

Whoa, what are those grind marks to the rear of trigger, factory or did someone try and make it more user friendly?

TheGunClinger · 08-19-2010, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJay

Whoa, what are those grind marks to the rear of trigger, factory or did someone try and make it more user friendly?

Looks like something I'd do with my Dremel.

TheGunClinger · 08-19-2010, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim K

It is possible. According to Clawson, Remington-Rand made some demonstration guns numbered from 1 to about 145. That is aside from the approximately 100 experimental guns with "ERRS" numbers.

Those guns were not numbered in the R-R government numbering series that GunClinger cites, were not marked as U.S. Property, and were not delivered to the government. They were later presented to employees and officers of the company.

If possible, can your grandfather document how he came by the gun, if he was a R-R employee or got it from someone who was. This is a case where there is a high possibility of fakery, so any documentation will be very valuable.

If genuine and documented, I would WAG the value at $10000, maybe more.

Jim

Jim, Is this Clawson a reference book? If so, where can I get one?

Jim K · 08-19-2010, 10:21 PM

The book is Collector's Guiide to Colt .45 Service Pistols, Models of 1911 and 1911A1 , by Charles W. Clawson. The latest (AFAIK) is the Third Edition.

I don't know where your grandfather got the gun, but if it was claimed to be an R-R demonstrator, it is almost certainly a fake. There are a number of reasons for saying that:

1. The slide marking is of the second type, not likely to have been used on a demonstration model.

2. The Parkerizing is too good, even for a pistol that did not see service.

3. The Parkerizing is post-WWII; it is the wrong color for WWII Parkerizing, and the frame and slide don't match.

4. The slide markings are shallow and blurred, characteristic of a slide that has been polished down to remove rust, then Parkerized.

5. The machining on the frame does not match any WWII production M1911A1; the frame could be Brazilian.

6. The stocks are Colt; R-R used Keyes grips.

7. The numbering is crude and out of line; R-R did a better job even on the demo guns.

Better pics would probably turn up more discrepancies, but I think that is enough.

Jim

TheGunClinger · 08-21-2010, 08:33 AM

http://www.coolgunsite.com/images/19..._remington.htm

Just found this. Wish I could find that Clawson book.

Jim K · 08-21-2010, 02:17 PM

In recent years, 1911 frames made overseas have shown up in the U.S. They either have no markings or a very lightly stamped number, which is easily removed. The "R-R demonstrator" makes a perfect story for those guns. Any number up to 150 can be put on, no other markings are needed. R-R slides are fairly common, so the two can be combined into something of more value than the parts alone.

The one shown on coolgunsite shows all the characteristics of the OP's gun, including the late R-R address, and has a GI shipping box, which is itself a fake. Further, why would a demo have a shipping box with a stock number on it. They were never shipped, and never belonged to the government.

IMHO, both guns are fake.

Jim

TheGunClinger · 08-21-2010, 02:57 PM

Rats! I thought I was onto something there.

BBQFISH · 08-21-2010, 07:29 PM

This gun has been in my grandfathers safe since 1960.
We're they faking them since the 1960's?

He is since passed away so I have no way to determine where or how he came into it's possession. I am working family to determine any knowledge they may have about this gun.

Thanks for all of the information.

I will keep researching.
BBQFISH

Jim K · 08-21-2010, 11:15 PM

AFAIK, they were not faking those guns in the 1960's because the frames were not available, but sometimes family stories do get confused over the years. As I said before, documented proof that such a gun is what it is purported to be would be necessary, otherwise it is simply a R-R slide on a frame of dubious origin. If I am wrong, I will readily admit it, but it will take some hard evidence.

Jim

Bill DeShivs · 08-22-2010, 01:21 AM

Often I have to tell someone that their grandfather's knife, that he carried in WW2, was made by a company that started business in 1957. Memories are not reliable.

Silver72 · 01-31-2012, 05:22 PM

The only thing Clawson's books mention is about test of all models of Ithaca, Rem Rand, US&S copies of Colt's 1911A1 is the inter changeability of parts in the guns. All guns had to prove reliability to function correctly with parts selected at random from all the other samples. If your gun started life as a Remington Rand someone made changes to it along the way.

Here is a picture of various guns frame markings.

I have only one RR left in my collection and the picture is not to swift as it was from the days of 35 mm film, not digital, and it is marked with British proofs when it traveled thru that country to the States.

Sorry for the late answer to your question, but I've been away, one might say.

3/2 STA SS · 02-01-2012, 04:07 PM

I used to have a ''lunchbox gun'' that no numbers on it because it was hobbled together at the factory with '' a part from here and a part from there''. They do exsist the numbers just look kinda fishy.

Jim K · 02-01-2012, 07:39 PM

While there were undoubtedly "lunchbox" guns, I have come to believe that the term is most often an excuse for any kind of mismatched pistol, with an odd frame or one with the serial number and markings illegally removed. By saying it is a "lunchbox" gun, the seller avoids the issue of removing or altering the serial number (there would never have been one) while asking a price that the gun would not justify as a jumble of parts.

Jim

08-18-2010, 10:35 PM	#1
BBQFISH Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 3	Remington Rand .45 Cal Demonstration Model - Worth I received a hand me down 1943 Remington Rand from my grandfather with the only marking being a number of 132 on the right side. Left side has Remington Rand Inc, Syracuse,NY, USA. My understanding this may have been a demonstration model for the company. Is there any way to determine if this was a demonstration model who was it presented to (number 132 must tell us something). Any confirmation on the demonstration model story being true would be welcome. Appears to have never been fired. No rust. Any information would be appreciated. BBQFISH -->

08-19-2010, 04:59 AM	#2
woolleyworm TFF Moderator/Host Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: SW Fort Worth Contributor Posts: 4,884	Re: Remington Rand .45 Cal Demonstration Model - Worth Have any pics? Does it function and have you fired it? __________________ . What are you gonna do, talk the alien to death? -- (on Sigourney Weaver's worry about Guns in Aliens) "Safety is something that happens between your ears, not something you hold in your hands." "I carry a small gun to compensate for my huge Blue press." .

08-19-2010, 05:33 AM	#3
TheGunClinger Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: SW Florida Contributor Posts: 2,386	Re: Remington Rand .45 Cal Demonstration Model - Worth Ser#s from 1-17250 are 1912 Colts and then there is Remington UMC 1918 with Ser#s from 1-13152. Odd. There was alot of mixing of parts back then. In 1943 the R/R Ser#s ranged from 916405-1041404 and then 1279699-1441430 and 1471431-1609528. __________________ New England Patriots Rule Next year.

08-19-2010, 08:31 AM	#4
deadin Senior Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 858	Re: Remington Rand .45 Cal Demonstration Model - Worth Where are the markings you mention? Is the "Remington Rand" on the slide and the serial number on the frame? If so, what other marks are there on the frame? Could be that it is a built gun with an after-market frame.

08-19-2010, 10:50 AM	#5
Jim K Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 6,408	Re: Remington Rand .45 Cal Demonstration Model - Worth It is possible. According to Clawson, Remington-Rand made some demonstration guns numbered from 1 to about 145. That is aside from the approximately 100 experimental guns with "ERRS" numbers. Those guns were not numbered in the R-R government numbering series that GunClinger cites, were not marked as U.S. Property, and were not delivered to the government. They were later presented to employees and officers of the company. If possible, can your grandfather document how he came by the gun, if he was a R-R employee or got it from someone who was. This is a case where there is a high possibility of fakery, so any documentation will be very valuable. If genuine and documented, I would WAG the value at $10000, maybe more. Jim

08-19-2010, 02:44 PM	#6
BBQFISH Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 3	Re: Remington Rand .45 Cal Demonstration Model - Worth Here are some pics of the gun and the markings. Attached Images

08-19-2010, 03:47 PM	#7
RJay Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 3,487	Re: Remington Rand .45 Cal Demonstration Model - Worth Whoa, what are those grind marks to the rear of trigger, factory or did someone try and make it more user friendly? __________________ RonJames

08-19-2010, 10:21 PM	#10
Jim K Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 6,408	Re: Remington Rand .45 Cal Demonstration Model - Worth The book is Collector's Guiide to Colt .45 Service Pistols, Models of 1911 and 1911A1 , by Charles W. Clawson. The latest (AFAIK) is the Third Edition. I don't know where your grandfather got the gun, but if it was claimed to be an R-R demonstrator, it is almost certainly a fake. There are a number of reasons for saying that: 1. The slide marking is of the second type, not likely to have been used on a demonstration model. 2. The Parkerizing is too good, even for a pistol that did not see service. 3. The Parkerizing is post-WWII; it is the wrong color for WWII Parkerizing, and the frame and slide don't match. 4. The slide markings are shallow and blurred, characteristic of a slide that has been polished down to remove rust, then Parkerized. 5. The machining on the frame does not match any WWII production M1911A1; the frame could be Brazilian. 6. The stocks are Colt; R-R used Keyes grips. 7. The numbering is crude and out of line; R-R did a better job even on the demo guns. Better pics would probably turn up more discrepancies, but I think that is enough. Jim

08-21-2010, 08:33 AM	#11
TheGunClinger Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: SW Florida Contributor Posts: 2,386	Re: Remington Rand .45 Cal Demonstration Model - Worth http://www.coolgunsite.com/images/19..._remington.htm Just found this. Wish I could find that Clawson book. __________________ New England Patriots Rule Next year.

08-21-2010, 02:17 PM	#12
Jim K Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 6,408	Re: Remington Rand .45 Cal Demonstration Model - Worth In recent years, 1911 frames made overseas have shown up in the U.S. They either have no markings or a very lightly stamped number, which is easily removed. The "R-R demonstrator" makes a perfect story for those guns. Any number up to 150 can be put on, no other markings are needed. R-R slides are fairly common, so the two can be combined into something of more value than the parts alone. The one shown on coolgunsite shows all the characteristics of the OP's gun, including the late R-R address, and has a GI shipping box, which is itself a fake. Further, why would a demo have a shipping box with a stock number on it. They were never shipped, and never belonged to the government. IMHO, both guns are fake. Jim

08-21-2010, 02:57 PM	#13
TheGunClinger Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: SW Florida Contributor Posts: 2,386	Re: Remington Rand .45 Cal Demonstration Model - Worth Rats! I thought I was onto something there. __________________ New England Patriots Rule Next year.

08-21-2010, 07:29 PM	#14
BBQFISH Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 3	Re: Remington Rand .45 Cal Demonstration Model - Worth This gun has been in my grandfathers safe since 1960. We're they faking them since the 1960's? He is since passed away so I have no way to determine where or how he came into it's possession. I am working family to determine any knowledge they may have about this gun. Thanks for all of the information. I will keep researching. BBQFISH

08-21-2010, 11:15 PM	#15
Jim K Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 6,408	Re: Remington Rand .45 Cal Demonstration Model - Worth AFAIK, they were not faking those guns in the 1960's because the frames were not available, but sometimes family stories do get confused over the years. As I said before, documented proof that such a gun is what it is purported to be would be necessary, otherwise it is simply a R-R slide on a frame of dubious origin. If I am wrong, I will readily admit it, but it will take some hard evidence. Jim

08-22-2010, 01:21 AM	#16
Bill DeShivs Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Contributor Posts: 1,470	Re: Remington Rand .45 Cal Demonstration Model - Worth Often I have to tell someone that their grandfather's knife, that he carried in WW2, was made by a company that started business in 1957. Memories are not reliable. __________________ Bill DeShivs www.billdeshivs.com

01-31-2012, 05:22 PM	#17
Silver72 Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Central Texas Posts: 542	Re: Remington Rand .45 Cal Demonstration Model - Worth The only thing Clawson's books mention is about test of all models of Ithaca, Rem Rand, US&S copies of Colt's 1911A1 is the inter changeability of parts in the guns. All guns had to prove reliability to function correctly with parts selected at random from all the other samples. If your gun started life as a Remington Rand someone made changes to it along the way. Here is a picture of various guns frame markings. I have only one RR left in my collection and the picture is not to swift as it was from the days of 35 mm film, not digital, and it is marked with British proofs when it traveled thru that country to the States. Sorry for the late answer to your question, but I've been away, one might say. Attached Images

02-01-2012, 04:07 PM	#18
3/2 STA SS Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Tampa Bay Area, FL Posts: 1,443	Re: Remington Rand .45 Cal Demonstration Model - Worth I used to have a ''lunchbox gun'' that no numbers on it because it was hobbled together at the factory with '' a part from here and a part from there''. They do exsist the numbers just look kinda fishy. __________________ MORS DE CONTACTUS-DEATH ON CONTACT

02-01-2012, 07:39 PM	#19
Jim K Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 6,408	Re: Remington Rand .45 Cal Demonstration Model - Worth While there were undoubtedly "lunchbox" guns, I have come to believe that the term is most often an excuse for any kind of mismatched pistol, with an odd frame or one with the serial number and markings illegally removed. By saying it is a "lunchbox" gun, the seller avoids the issue of removing or altering the serial number (there would never have been one) while asking a price that the gun would not justify as a jumble of parts. Jim