WWII Colt 1911 Value?

[seahawkfan43]

I foud this gun in a home I bought. I know the gentleman served as a merchant marine during WWII. This was his service piece. Just trying to find out how rare it is, and what the value might be on it. Based on the serial number, it appears it was produced between 1912 and 1915. Any help is appreciated. Go to the link below for pictures.


http://picasaweb.google.com/10467401...9034/Colt1911#

[RJay]

It is indeed a Colt 1911, Army issue, and it could have very well been used in WWI. ( WW II used the 1911A1 ). It is very desirable, even with the minor pitting and finish problem. Go to the Culvers Shooting Page Forums and post the same question under the 1911 forum. You have experts on that forumm who can tell what the weather was like on the day your gun was built.
http://www.jouster.com/forums/ Value I think you will be pleasantly surprised. Why is it every house I've ever bought , the only thing I every found was cock roaches?

[Shooter45]

Your Colt was produced in 1913 for US Navy issue.

[RJay]

Thanks Shooter 45, And that makes it even more desirable. If it was assigned to a ship, John Holbrook might even be able to tell you which one ( Culvers Shooting Page ).

[seahawkfan43]

When I originally looked it up by its serial number, it showed that it was issued to the USS New York. Just wasn't fully sure what I had on my hands. I will post it on the other site too. Any other info I can get will be helpful. Thanks again.

[J_S_GR]

Good gosh that's beautiful.

[seahawkfan43]

Thanks for all the help. I really appreciate it.

[Jim K]

At the time the Model 1911 was adopted, the Navy was still doing its own small arms procurement, and they demanded a "piece of the action" on the new auto pistol. So Colt made some 31,000 M1911 pistols marked U.S. NAVY. Later, (I don't have the exact date) Congress designated the Army as the lead military department for small arms and (with some exceptions), specially marked Navy or Marine Corps guns ceased. (There were NO M1911 or M1911A1 pistols marked "U.S.M.C." Those seen from time to time are fakes, no matter what the story is.)

Jim

[seahawkfan43]

I have a Colt 1911 Navy that I am looking to sell and have never done a private sale in person or online before and was looking for some help or guidance. Was also looking for some help in determining the value of this gun. So here is what I have:

US Navy issued Colt 1911. From the research that I have done, it was manufactured in 1913 and assigned to they USS New York for WWI. I do not know if this gun was actually used during the war or not. I do know however that this gun was used in WWII. I received this gun from a gentleman who was a Merchant Marine during WWII and this was his service piece. He served on a gas tanker in the South Pacific that serviced the Navy ships during the war. It does have some rust damage and pitting to it, but given the fact that it is 100 years old and served in 1, possibly 2 wars, that should almost be expected. I took it to Cabelas to see if they could give me a value on it, and while they dismantled it and confirmed everything was either original or period correct on the gun, they said it was so unique that it would be hard to put a value on it. So now I am here looking for your help. If you either know the value of this gun, or have suggestions on the best way to go about selling it, I would love to hear from you. Follow this link http://picasaweb.google.com/10467401...9034/Colt1911# to see pictures of the gun. Thanks in advance for your time.

[GunnyGene]

You've got a very valuable gun there. Could easily fetch over $10k. I'd contact a reputable auction house such as Christies http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/s...lectedids=8919 . I would not put it up on Ebay or any other on-line auction site.

Also, if you haven't already done so, I'd contact Colt http://www.coltsmfg.com/CustomerServ...eServices.aspx directly to obtain records of this gun, and possible the USN http://www.history.navy.mil/research...llections.html as well to see if they can provide additional info. If you could find the name of the individual on board the NewYork who was issued this pistol it would go a long way towards increasing the value.

PS: Don't be in a hurry to sell it. The value of it has no place to go but up.

PPS: There should also be some Inspectors Mark on it somewhere. You can match that up to the inspectors name, etc. here: http://proofhouse.com/cm/us_inspector.htm

[Double D]

Wow, how did you arrive at that number?

[GunnyGene]

Originally Posted by Double D

Wow, how did you arrive at that number?

There were only 100 of these assigned to the USS New York. Also looking on Christies site, a couple of 1911's of a slightly younger vintage, that are not nearly as rare, sold for in excess of $2000 in 2002.

[Jim K]

When the Model 1911 was first adopted by the Army, the Navy didn't want to be left out so the two services agreed to take turns buying them. The Army would buy some, then the Navy. After the Army got some 35,000, the Navy got 7000, marked "U.S. Navy." This continued through 1912, then it was agreed that the Army would buy the guns and they would be marked "U.S. Army"; the other services would obtain them from the Army. (None were ever marked originally "U.S.M.C."; those that exist are fakes of recent origin.)

Since Colt was marking slides without knowing for sure which service they would go to, they stamped them all "MODEL OF 1911," and left the rest blank. When they were sure just which service would get that shipment, they added "U.S. ARMY" or "U.S. NAVY". That is why, if you look closely you will see that the "U.S. NAVY" marking is in a different font than the model marking.

The gun appears to be original and correct. Unfortunately, it is not in good condition. That would be partly compensated for if it is possible to get a notarized statement from the man who carried it in the Pacific giving his record and that it was issued to him.

Even as is, I would value that gun at around $3000; were it in much better shape, it would be at least double that, but a proof of its story should add a couple of thousand. (Sorry, but without some documentary proof, it is just another story, and the old adage "buy the gun, not the story" applies.)

Jim

[Jim K]

I have U.S. Navy #796 in about 90% and if anyone wants to give me $12,000 they can have it.

Jim

[GunnyGene]

Just for fun, let's say that Seahawks 1911 was issued to the Captain of BB-34:

Here's some names and history of the ship:

http://www.history.navy.mil/danfs/n4/new_york-v.htm

The fifth New York (BB–34) was laid down 11 September 1911 by Brooklyn Navy Yard, New York; launched 30 October 1912; sponsored by Miss Elsie Calder; and commissioned 15 April 1914, Captain Thomas S. Rodgers in command.

Ordered south soon after commissioning, New York was flagship for Rear Admiral Frank Fletcher, commanding the fleet occupying and blockading Vera Cruz until resolution of the crisis with Mexico in July 1914. New York then headed north for fleet operations along the Atlantic coast as war broke out in Europe.

Upon the entry of the United States into the war, New York sailed as flagship with Battleship Division 9 commanded by Rear Admiral Hugh Rodman to strengthen the British Grand Fleet in the North Sea, arriving Scapa Flow 7 December 1917. Constituting a separate squadron in the Grand Fleet, the American ships joined in blockade and escort missions and by their very presence so weighted the Allies’ preponderance of naval power as to inhibit the Germans from attempting any major fleet engagements. New York twice encountered U-boats.

During her World War I service, New York was frequently visited by royal and other high-ranking representatives of the Allies, and she was present for one of the most dramatic moments of the war, the surrender of the German High Seas Fleet in the Firth of Forth 21 November 1918. As a last European mission, New York joined the ships escorting President Woodrow Wilson from an ocean rendezvous to Brest en route the Versailles Conference.

Returning to a program which alternated individual and fleet exercises with necessary maintenance, New York trained in the Caribbean in spring 1919, and that summer joined the Pacific Fleet at San Diego, her home port for the next 16 years. She trained off Hawaii and the West Coast, occasionally returning to the Atlantic and Caribbean for brief missions or overhauls. In 1937, carrying Admiral Hugh Rodman, the President’s personal representative for the coronation of King George VI of England, New York sailed to take part in the Grand Naval Review of 20 May 1937 as sole U.S. Navy representative.

Point being that this guns value is going to be related to it's history, not it's condition. The ships armory would have kept records of every weapon on board and who it was issued to. Whether those records still exist is another question of course, but Navy records are pretty complete except for those which were sunk, etc.

[GunnyGene]

This needs to be merged with the other one.

[ka64]

Originally Posted by seahawkfan43

I have a Colt 1911 Navy that I am looking to sell and have never done a private sale in person or online before and was looking for some help or guidance. Was also looking for some help in determining the value of this gun. So here is what I have:

US Navy issued Colt 1911. From the research that I have done, it was manufactured in 1913 and assigned to they USS New York for WWI. I do not know if this gun was actually used during the war or not. I do know however that this gun was used in WWII. I received this gun from a gentleman who was a Merchant Marine during WWII and this was his service piece. He served on a gas tanker in the South Pacific that serviced the Navy ships during the war. It does have some rust damage and pitting to it, but given the fact that it is 100 years old and served in 1, possibly 2 wars, that should almost be expected. I took it to Cabelas to see if they could give me a value on it, and while they dismantled it and confirmed everything was either original or period correct on the gun, they said it was so unique that it would be hard to put a value on it. So now I am here looking for your help. If you either know the value of this gun, or have suggestions on the best way to go about selling it, I would love to hear from you. Follow this link http://picasaweb.google.com/10467401...9034/Colt1911# to see pictures of the gun. Thanks in advance for your time.

Rather beat up, but seein we're so close I'll give ya $2,000

[ka64]

Originally Posted by GunnyGene

You've got a very valuable gun there. Could easily fetch over $10k. I'd contact a reputable auction house such as Christies http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/s...lectedids=8919 . I would not put it up on Ebay or any other on-line auction site.

Also, if you haven't already done so, I'd contact Colt http://www.coltsmfg.com/CustomerServ...eServices.aspx directly to obtain records of this gun, and possible the USN http://www.history.navy.mil/research...llections.html as well to see if they can provide additional info. If you could find the name of the individual on board the NewYork who was issued this pistol it would go a long way towards increasing the value.

PS: Don't be in a hurry to sell it. The value of it has no place to go but up.

PPS: There should also be some Inspectors Mark on it somewhere. You can match that up to the inspectors name, etc. here: http://proofhouse.com/cm/us_inspector.htm

SHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Double D]

Aint no way that gun is worth 10 grand.

[GunnyGene]

Originally Posted by Double D

Aint no way that gun is worth 10 grand.

Well, Bonnie Parker’s .38-caliber Detective Special, went for $264,000 at the recent auction. And it weren't nothing special either.

It's all about the history.

[deadin]

According to the serial number lists for the 1911 the USS New York guns were in serial range 43801 to 43900. The one shown falls in the earlier USN block of 38001 to 43800. So unless the owner can document ownership by someone on the New York, the connection isn't there. Even with such documentation it is not one of the 100 sent to the NY.
Still a desirable piece, just not quite as rare.

[dcriner]

My Navy experiece is much later than USS New York. But personal weapons were not assigned to individuals, nor did they routinely carry them. They were under the control of a chief gunner's mate, and issued only when required, perhaps for a few hours for training. I think it is hopeless to identify who that 1911 might have been issued to, probably not to any one particular person.

[GunnyGene]

I'm pretty sure that at least the ships officers would have their sidearms permanently assigned to them while they were ships company, even if they were stored in the armory. The senior officers would have kept theirs in their quarters most likely. If they transferred to another boat they would have been issued/assigned a new weapon by their new command.

The USMC did that for the first few years I was in - up to the early 70's. The weapons were kept in the unit armory for non-combat troops, and checked out for exercises, qual and other unit training, but were assigned by ser.no to individuals. In combat zones, weapons of course, stayed with the individuals even in the air wing. It really ticked off the AirForce guys when we'd wander over to their side of DaNang with loaded M-14's, 45's or whatever else we had hanging on us, but they couldn't do squat about it.

But to your point, I think it may be difficult to find records, but the only way to find out is to contact the Navy archives I posted above.

Also, the lot of 100 may well be the only designated lot sent to the USS New York, but I'd bet dollars to donuts they had earlier general issue .45s and other arms on board the day the ship joined the fleet. It was a warship afterall, and that means a contingent of Marines on board, at the very least, for security, shore patrol when in port, etc. who would have to have been armed.

[deadin]

but I'd bet dollars to donuts they had earlier general issue .45s and other arms on board the day the ship joined the fleet.

The USS New York (BB34) was laid down 9/11/11, launched 10/30/12 and completed (commissioned?) 4/15/14 so there wasn't much time to have a previous issue of M1911s. The New York M1911s were made in 1913, so they may have been the entire issue.
(The next 100 in the serial range went to the sister ship USS Texas (BB35) laid down 4/17/11, launched 5/18/12 and completed 3/12/14.)
So there may have been later issues, but unlikely there were any earlier...

[WHSmithIV]

I'd certainly love to own one. I'm a Navy vet, However, I disagree that it would be worth up to 10k. Since the gun is not in perfect condition, but if you do have the provenence on paper as to where it was, who owned it when and in what wars, then it will definitely have collectors value. I think you could get probably 2-4 thousand dollars for it, but, with it's condition and rust possibly less - that will depend on the auction that you put it in and how good the auctioneer is. Keep in mind that you lose 10-25% of the sale price for the auction commission.

Rust on a piece is never good. Removing it means removing some original metal. There are innumerable scratches on the surface but the rust is the worst problem. I am a collector and rust can not be left on the metal - it just gets worse. Having to remove it to protect the metal changes the original metal parts and reduces value. After rust removal you have to protect the rest of the original metal. Your 1911 is a blued 1911. After the careful removing of the ALL of the original bluing the slide and the frame will need to be hot blued to bring it back to it's original glory.

So, as a collector I would not pay more than about $300 for the pistol since after restoration it would not be worth much more than the investment - costs to restore it would be around $800 or more. Leaving the rust on it is not an option. The restoration alone reduces it's value. 'Possibly' ,with very loving restoration, the value after restoration with history paperwork would bring the value up to the 1-2k range, but never to the 10k area. To be in the 10k area the piece really does have to be in very good condition and work and fire well + have original documented providence. Every gun in my collection I do fire - even my 100 year old tiny .32 top break revolver. It is sad to see such a nice piece of history in such poor condition.

I hate to break a bubble, but this 1911 is nowhere worth $10,000 - even with it's paperwork if you have it. Granted, there is a sucker born every day, but you will not find one at a gun auction.

With no real paperwork, the pistol was the side arm of the 'petty officer of the watch' - possibly for many years. 10k is ridiculous.

Tools stop working if they don't get occasional use and they definitely stop working without caring maintenance.