Confederate sniper rifle, Whitworth Rifle - The Firearms Forum

Palmetto · 08-31-2010, 12:37 PM

I find it hard to believe that this gun had an 1800 yard range.

http://www.factasy.com/civil_war/weapons/7.shtml

3/2 STA SS · 10-02-2010, 02:34 PM

When I went to Sniper School in the Marines we only fired out to 1000 yds and that was with .308 173 grain bullets that were Lake City match. We had an Iver Johnson sinlge shot 50 caliber in the First Gulf war that we shot oil barrels at approximately 1700 yds. It was 50 cal BMG and had a 16 power Leuipold on it. 1800 yards I believe was wishfull thinking considering the optics of the day.

jack404 · 10-02-2010, 07:48 PM

Early lee Enfield's had ranges marked out to 2000 yards on their sights for volley fire

line up your company in ranks

order a volley fire ..

100+ round impacting 2000 yards away

its scarey to be under fire from these

when we first went into Afghanistan there was a case where a section was pinned from long range fire , it was pretty dang accurate

we dropped a team behind the suspected shooters position and found it to be one old gent and his grand daughter

he'd been keeping everyone (taliban included) out of his little branch valley

while he had not hit any of our folks his fire was bloody accurate

now imagine 5-10 folks set up similarly it would be real nasty without helicopters

imagine 50-100 folks firing this way and it'd be a slaughter starting at 2000 yards and all the way in till bayonet time ( 100 yard dash)

that was with a 1880's rifle so i'll not call foul on this , if its keeping your heads down its doing the job ..

ofitg · 10-03-2010, 12:58 AM

The Whitworth rifle was the instrument of one of the most remembered acts of black powder sniping. On May 9, 1864, during the Battle of Spotsylvania Courthouse, Union General John Sedgwick was chiding some of his troops for lying down in a ditch to avoid Confederate snipers at a range of around 800 to 1000 yards. So the story goes - the general allowed that they 'couldn't hit an elephant at this range'. Sgt. E. R Grace of the 4th Georgia Infantry scored a head shot a few moments later, with his Whitworth rifle. As a result, the Union attack was delayed, and General Robert E. Lee won the battle.

---------------------

Bad day for Gen. Sedgwick!

jack404 · 10-03-2010, 02:02 AM

excellent

personally i think it may have been more arse than class (arse as in luck)

but dead is dead

got more info on that shot ?

ofitg · 10-03-2010, 02:19 AM

Here's a good read - http://www.civilwarbattlefields.us/s.../sedgwick.html

In this version of the story, the range was "more than 500 yards" (according to the plaque). Still an impressive shot for a muzzle-loader.

Nothing wrong with "luck".... some historians believe that Baron Von Richtofen was shot down by an Australian infantryman with a .303 Enfield.

Wife is telling me to go to bed. 'Night y'all.

jack404 · 10-03-2010, 02:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ofitg

Here's a good read - http://www.civilwarbattlefields.us/s.../sedgwick.html

In this version of the story, the range was "more than 500 yards". Still an impressive shot for a muzzle-loader.

Nothing wrong with "luck".... some historians believe that Baron Von Richtofen was shot down by an Australian infantryman with a .303 Enfield.

yes but the other side now say a Aussie Vickers MG got him

we'll never know though really unless they dig him up and the question aint worth disurbing the Man ,

but long distance sniping with BP rifles is doable but the 1000 yard mark is awful hard, with accuracy

at 500-800 yards i'd say yes a damn fine shot and the weapons capable of doing it too, but beyond 800 yard, its like the sound barrier

i'm trying to build a one mile BP rifle , no success yet

ofitg · 10-03-2010, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jack404

i'm trying to build a one mile BP rifle , no success yet

A one-mile BP rifle would be mind-boggling. I've been looking through some of my old books - there are a couple of BP loads which exceed 2000 ft/sec, but those projectiles have very poor ballistic coefficients.

Would a special propellant mix (like Ammonpulver, for example) be worth trying?

jacksonco · 10-03-2010, 01:49 PM

http://www.researchpress.co.uk/longrange/sandyhook.htm

How about a 45-70 black powder trapdoor rifle pushing a 500 grain bullet out to 2 1/2 mile? Read the posted link. It is a testiment of just how good some of the black powder rifles were.

millwright · 10-03-2010, 05:21 PM

During the Civil War "sniping" was done less at individuals than "area targets", i.e. groups of officers/aides. So hostile fire from any range impacting within a 50' dia circle could disrupt operations. Like today the ability to "dope" the wind and conditions were snipers' biggest asset.

The Whitworth was/is an extremely accurate rifle at any range. Its bore C/L was notoriously 'true' and its sights were excellent. Moreover its "shot to shot" variation was minimized by its hexagonal bore. It also imparted a twist rate/rpm acceptable for the bullet weight/profile used. A "good eye" was a mark of pride in CSA regiments. Giving 'the best the best' is just logical.

Range is mostly a matter of shooter experience/skill rather than equipment. Numerous reports have Billy Dixon shooting a Comanche war chief off his horse at the end of the "'Battle of Adobe Walls" with his Sharps at over 1/2 mile as documented by witnesses and the USA. Dixon is alleged to comment it was a "scratch shot" - meaning lucky. But Dixon was a buffalo hunter of repute with considerable experience estimating range/conditions/distance. So smoke pole or Lapua, its more the man behind the trigger than the arm...... >MW

jack404 · 10-03-2010, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ofitg

A one-mile BP rifle would be mind-boggling. I've been looking through some of my old books - there are a couple of BP loads which exceed 2000 ft/sec, but those projectiles have very poor ballistic coefficients.

Would a special propellant mix (like Ammonpulver, for example) be worth trying?

Quote:

Originally Posted by millwright

During the Civil War "sniping" was done less at individuals than "area targets", i.e. groups of officers/aides. So hostile fire from any range impacting within a 50' dia circle could disrupt operations. Like today the ability to "dope" the wind and conditions were snipers' biggest asset.

The Whitworth was/is an extremely accurate rifle at any range. Its bore C/L was notoriously 'true' and its sights were excellent. Moreover its "shot to shot" variation was minimized by its hexagonal bore. It also imparted a twist rate/rpm acceptable for the bullet weight/profile used. A "good eye" was a mark of pride in CSA regiments. Giving 'the best the best' is just logical.

Range is mostly a matter of shooter experience/skill rather than equipment. Numerous reports have Billy Dixon shooting a Comanche war chief off his horse at the end of the "'Battle of Adobe Walls" with his Sharps at over 1/2 mile as documented by witnesses and the USA. Dixon is alleged to comment it was a "scratch shot" - meaning lucky. But Dixon was a buffalo hunter of repute with considerable experience estimating range/conditions/distance. So smoke pole or Lapua, its more the man behind the trigger than the arm...... >MW

Ofitg, i'm already playing with sugar loads ( dexi ) at about 10% Dex added to the BP componant and les sulfur MV is over 2000 FPS, its accuracy as the issue but sorting that out with twist rates and longer projectiles slowly..

my 1 mile target is a 3 foot by 3 foot piece of sheet steel , i get it every now and again but no consistent shots so far vice mounted or not ..

for now its more luck than expertise but working on it

when i was a young fella there was a chap who was shooting dingo's but saw him shoot 3 ducks on the wing , bang bang bang .. with a Wembley .455
dunno how good to eat they where but he got em ...
so agree the shooter has a lot to do with it all

CHW2021 · 10-13-2010, 09:30 AM

Place yourselves in the time period gents; the Whitworth was the Barrett .50 of it's day and it was only given to the best of the best. These soldiers were more experienced in the art of blackpowder than we could appreciate, these men shot dinner or went hungry.Read the article in the American Rifleman from several months ago. My .02.

Old Steve · 10-27-2010, 11:50 PM

I have a biography of Whitworth, his life is virtually a history of modern mechanical engineering. The origin and technology of the polygonal rifling is well documented, and the performance is also. Pegler in his book "Sniper" also supports the performance of the rifle. The Southerners were noted for a relatively large percentage of excellent riflemen, and because Confederate factories were never adequate for the quantities needed, rifles were purchased wherever they could. The Whitworth rifles were commercial purchase, and as others have pointed out, they were only given to men who had exceptional skill, as they were very expensive as were the bullets. And it isn't recorded how many shots were misses. The rifle was capable of 1800 yd kills.

flintlock · 10-28-2010, 03:14 PM

Does anyone remember what the rifiling was in the Whitworth? I seem to remember that it was a sort of polygonal rifiling system as opposed to the land and groove style. It supposedly contributed to the accuracy of the rifle. Also the bullet was very long for it's caliber.

ghrit · 10-28-2010, 03:55 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitworth_rifle

RJay · 10-30-2010, 03:37 PM

You have to remember, the ranges cited was guesstimates, not exacts. There were no laser range finders in use and no one was going to walk off the distance under enemy observation and fire. 500 hunred yards is doable, 1800 yards with a black powder rifle? that's wishful thinking.

Old Steve · 10-30-2010, 11:22 PM

Rj
They had survey maps in those days, and the ranges on Whitworth's private range were known exactly, others were perhaps more wishful than you. Most of his testing was for Army boards that didn't want to believe it either.

Those interested might want to read "Sniper- A History of the US Marksmen" by Martin Pegler.
You can find it using an advanced search on Amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/Sniper-PB-Hist...8503121&sr=1-2

Jim K · 10-31-2010, 12:30 PM

Sniping was not always the province of the Whitworth and the like. CS General Leonidas K. Polk was neatly sniped off Pine Mountain, GA, by a Union soldier firing a 20-pounder Parrott. At a range of just over a mile, the shell went through the general's chest from side to side, reportedly without knocking him down, and without going off. And it was "sniping", not part of an artillery bombardment; the shot was deliberately aimed and fired at a small group of Confederate officers.

So anyone else want to call .50 "big bore."

Jim

Old Steve · 11-01-2010, 04:13 AM

Interesting story, Jim K. There were in fact not very many Whitworth rifles involved, and reportedly many shooters preferred the Sharps rifles, being breech loading having somewhat better rate of fire, not very important to snipers, but can be reloaded without standing up or breaking cover, which was a very valuable asset. And they were accurate out to quite long range.

08-31-2010, 12:37 PM	#1
Palmetto V.I.P. Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: North Carolina Posts: 188	Confederate sniper rifle, Whitworth Rifle I find it hard to believe that this gun had an 1800 yard range. http://www.factasy.com/civil_war/weapons/7.shtml -->

10-02-2010, 02:34 PM	#2
3/2 STA SS Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Tampa Bay Area, FL Posts: 1,437	Re: Confederate sniper rifle, Whitworth Rifle When I went to Sniper School in the Marines we only fired out to 1000 yds and that was with .308 173 grain bullets that were Lake City match. We had an Iver Johnson sinlge shot 50 caliber in the First Gulf war that we shot oil barrels at approximately 1700 yds. It was 50 cal BMG and had a 16 power Leuipold on it. 1800 yards I believe was wishfull thinking considering the optics of the day. Last edited by 3/2 STA SS; 10-02-2010 at 02:35 PM..

10-02-2010, 07:48 PM	#3
jack404 Former Guest Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Australia Contributor Posts: 17,622	Re: Confederate sniper rifle, Whitworth Rifle Early lee Enfield's had ranges marked out to 2000 yards on their sights for volley fire line up your company in ranks order a volley fire .. 100+ round impacting 2000 yards away its scarey to be under fire from these when we first went into Afghanistan there was a case where a section was pinned from long range fire , it was pretty dang accurate we dropped a team behind the suspected shooters position and found it to be one old gent and his grand daughter he'd been keeping everyone (taliban included) out of his little branch valley while he had not hit any of our folks his fire was bloody accurate now imagine 5-10 folks set up similarly it would be real nasty without helicopters imagine 50-100 folks firing this way and it'd be a slaughter starting at 2000 yards and all the way in till bayonet time ( 100 yard dash) that was with a 1880's rifle so i'll not call foul on this , if its keeping your heads down its doing the job ..

10-03-2010, 12:58 AM	#4
ofitg Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Contributor Posts: 1,447	Re: Confederate sniper rifle, Whitworth Rifle The Whitworth rifle was the instrument of one of the most remembered acts of black powder sniping. On May 9, 1864, during the Battle of Spotsylvania Courthouse, Union General John Sedgwick was chiding some of his troops for lying down in a ditch to avoid Confederate snipers at a range of around 800 to 1000 yards. So the story goes - the general allowed that they 'couldn't hit an elephant at this range'. Sgt. E. R Grace of the 4th Georgia Infantry scored a head shot a few moments later, with his Whitworth rifle. As a result, the Union attack was delayed, and General Robert E. Lee won the battle. --------------------- Bad day for Gen. Sedgwick!

10-03-2010, 02:02 AM	#5
jack404 Former Guest Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Australia Contributor Posts: 17,622	Re: Confederate sniper rifle, Whitworth Rifle excellent personally i think it may have been more arse than class (arse as in luck) but dead is dead got more info on that shot ?

10-03-2010, 02:19 AM	#6
ofitg Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Contributor Posts: 1,447	Re: Confederate sniper rifle, Whitworth Rifle Here's a good read - http://www.civilwarbattlefields.us/s.../sedgwick.html In this version of the story, the range was "more than 500 yards" (according to the plaque). Still an impressive shot for a muzzle-loader. Nothing wrong with "luck".... some historians believe that Baron Von Richtofen was shot down by an Australian infantryman with a .303 Enfield. Wife is telling me to go to bed. 'Night y'all. Last edited by ofitg; 10-03-2010 at 02:43 AM..

10-03-2010, 01:49 PM	#9
jacksonco Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Jackson County West Virginia Posts: 2,237	Re: Confederate sniper rifle, Whitworth Rifle http://www.researchpress.co.uk/longrange/sandyhook.htm How about a 45-70 black powder trapdoor rifle pushing a 500 grain bullet out to 2 1/2 mile? Read the posted link. It is a testiment of just how good some of the black powder rifles were.

10-03-2010, 05:21 PM	#10
millwright Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 1,436	Re: Confederate sniper rifle, Whitworth Rifle During the Civil War "sniping" was done less at individuals than "area targets", i.e. groups of officers/aides. So hostile fire from any range impacting within a 50' dia circle could disrupt operations. Like today the ability to "dope" the wind and conditions were snipers' biggest asset. The Whitworth was/is an extremely accurate rifle at any range. Its bore C/L was notoriously 'true' and its sights were excellent. Moreover its "shot to shot" variation was minimized by its hexagonal bore. It also imparted a twist rate/rpm acceptable for the bullet weight/profile used. A "good eye" was a mark of pride in CSA regiments. Giving 'the best the best' is just logical. Range is mostly a matter of shooter experience/skill rather than equipment. Numerous reports have Billy Dixon shooting a Comanche war chief off his horse at the end of the "'Battle of Adobe Walls" with his Sharps at over 1/2 mile as documented by witnesses and the USA. Dixon is alleged to comment it was a "scratch shot" - meaning lucky. But Dixon was a buffalo hunter of repute with considerable experience estimating range/conditions/distance. So smoke pole or Lapua, its more the man behind the trigger than the arm...... >MW

10-13-2010, 09:30 AM	#12
CHW2021 V.I.P. Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Louisiana Posts: 467	Re: Confederate sniper rifle, Whitworth Rifle Place yourselves in the time period gents; the Whitworth was the Barrett .50 of it's day and it was only given to the best of the best. These soldiers were more experienced in the art of blackpowder than we could appreciate, these men shot dinner or went hungry.Read the article in the American Rifleman from several months ago. My .02.

10-27-2010, 11:50 PM	#13
Old Steve V.I.P. Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 57	Re: Confederate sniper rifle, Whitworth Rifle I have a biography of Whitworth, his life is virtually a history of modern mechanical engineering. The origin and technology of the polygonal rifling is well documented, and the performance is also. Pegler in his book "Sniper" also supports the performance of the rifle. The Southerners were noted for a relatively large percentage of excellent riflemen, and because Confederate factories were never adequate for the quantities needed, rifles were purchased wherever they could. The Whitworth rifles were commercial purchase, and as others have pointed out, they were only given to men who had exceptional skill, as they were very expensive as were the bullets. And it isn't recorded how many shots were misses. The rifle was capable of 1800 yd kills.

10-28-2010, 03:14 PM	#14
flintlock Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Upstate NY Contributor Posts: 896	Re: Confederate sniper rifle, Whitworth Rifle Does anyone remember what the rifiling was in the Whitworth? I seem to remember that it was a sort of polygonal rifiling system as opposed to the land and groove style. It supposedly contributed to the accuracy of the rifle. Also the bullet was very long for it's caliber.

10-28-2010, 03:55 PM	#15
ghrit V.I.P. Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Endless Mountains, PA Posts: 89	Re: Confederate sniper rifle, Whitworth Rifle http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitworth_rifle __________________ .30-06 - Billions served There are two kinds of ships. Submarines and targets. www.survivalmonkey.com

10-30-2010, 03:37 PM	#16
RJay Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 3,487	Re: Confederate sniper rifle, Whitworth Rifle You have to remember, the ranges cited was guesstimates, not exacts. There were no laser range finders in use and no one was going to walk off the distance under enemy observation and fire. 500 hunred yards is doable, 1800 yards with a black powder rifle? that's wishful thinking. __________________ RonJames

10-30-2010, 11:22 PM	#17
Old Steve V.I.P. Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 57	Re: Confederate sniper rifle, Whitworth Rifle Rj They had survey maps in those days, and the ranges on Whitworth's private range were known exactly, others were perhaps more wishful than you. Most of his testing was for Army boards that didn't want to believe it either. Those interested might want to read "Sniper- A History of the US Marksmen" by Martin Pegler. You can find it using an advanced search on Amazon. http://www.amazon.com/Sniper-PB-Hist...8503121&sr=1-2 Last edited by Old Steve; 10-31-2010 at 12:32 AM..

10-31-2010, 12:30 PM	#18
Jim K Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 6,408	Re: Confederate sniper rifle, Whitworth Rifle Sniping was not always the province of the Whitworth and the like. CS General Leonidas K. Polk was neatly sniped off Pine Mountain, GA, by a Union soldier firing a 20-pounder Parrott. At a range of just over a mile, the shell went through the general's chest from side to side, reportedly without knocking him down, and without going off. And it was "sniping", not part of an artillery bombardment; the shot was deliberately aimed and fired at a small group of Confederate officers. So anyone else want to call .50 "big bore." Jim

11-01-2010, 04:13 AM	#19
Old Steve V.I.P. Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 57	Re: Confederate sniper rifle, Whitworth Rifle Interesting story, Jim K. There were in fact not very many Whitworth rifles involved, and reportedly many shooters preferred the Sharps rifles, being breech loading having somewhat better rate of fire, not very important to snipers, but can be reloaded without standing up or breaking cover, which was a very valuable asset. And they were accurate out to quite long range.