Short Barreled Shotgun

[johnlives4christ]

i've been thinking about maybe going through the trouble and the 200 dollar tax to be able to make a short barreled shotgun.

i have some questions though.

1 one thing i've heard is that the feds can come any time day or night and demand to see the gun that is registered. is this true? (i imagine it is though)

2 do they have the right to see anything else? such as other guns? or search your house?

3 does the gun have to be stored in any particular manner? can i just hang it on the gun rack, does it have to be in a safe?

4 i cant transport over state lines without written permission right? but transport in my state is fine?

5 i've heard that i would have to carry the paperwork on the gun with me wherever the gun goes. is this true?

6 what about using the gun for self defense? i dont want the gun as a toy, but as what i would consider a better home defense gun. what are the downfalls to this?

7 do i have to supply the feds with a list of my other non NFA firearms?

8 i've heard i can either have the gun licensed or the barrel. is this true? if i had just the barrel, i wouldnt be able to reduce the shotgun to less than 26" overall length with a pistol grip?

9 is there any other rights i give up, or anything else i would need to know?

~john

[Bill DeShivs]

1. not true.
2. no
3. no, yes, no
4. yes
5. you should carry a copy, but it not required.
6. you could lose the gun.
7. no
8. you can only register a receiver
There is no "licensing," only a tax and registration

[johnlives4christ]

Originally Posted by johnlives4christ

6 what about using the gun for self defense? i dont want the gun as a toy, but as what i would consider a better home defense gun. what are the downfalls to this?


~john

Originally Posted by Bill DeShivs

6. you could lose the gun.

this is true of any firearm isnt it? would i have more of a chance of losing the SBS?

[johnlives4christ]

Originally Posted by johnlives4christ

5 i've heard that i would have to carry the paperwork on the gun with me wherever the gun goes. is this true?


~john

Originally Posted by Bill DeShivs

5. you should carry a copy, but it not required.

why should i carry a copy? is it just so that if i get stopped by the police that they dont assume it's an illegal weapon and arrest me?

[Alpo]

When you have an NFA item, there are two copies of the paperwork. They are both considered "originals". You have one and ATF has one. Thing is, ATF has been known to lose their copy. So you need to make sure you never lose your copy, otherwise you run the risk of having an "unregistered NFA item", which is expensive in both money and jail time.

So, you make a copy of your paperwork, and keep your original safely put away.

You are required, by law, to show evidence of registration to an ATF agent that wants to see it. You don't' have to show any other cop. By Law. However, if the cop sees you with a SBS, SBR, machine gun or silencer, he gonna arrest you. Intelligent people carry a copy of their paper, so when the cop says, "Oooooh, illegal!", you can whip out your copy and say, "No it ain't".

If the ATF wants to see your registered item, they have to call for an appointment, and you have the option of telling them that you will bring it to them, instead of them coming to your place. I know a guy that keeps his in safety deposit boxes, at the bank. The one time ATF wanted to see one, that's what he did. I got my first NFA item in '98. They've never asked to see any of 'em.

If you shoot a bad guy, with a Glock, the cops will take it. It will go to forensics, where it will be printed and test fired, and they will run the serial numbers. Then, without any type of cleaning, the will stick it in a box and put it in the evidence locker. And there it will sit until either the Grand Jury calls a No Bill, or they have a trial and you're acquitted. After that, they give it back to you. Unless you live in some place like New Orleans, where they have the quaint custom of keeping your gun once they have it, even though they have no legal right to do so.

If you do the shooting with something not so ordinary, like a Calico, or an Uzi, they still treat it the same way, but now bunches of cops will be hanging around Evidence, hoping to handle it. Glocks and Smiths are commonplace. Calicos - not so much. And if you used something really off-the-wall, every cop in the county - not just the city cops, but the deputies and the state troopers - will be coming in to see it, and hoping to handle it. Your gun is gonna be finger-banged by dozens, if not hundreds, of people. And then, again without being cleaned, put back into Evidence, to wait a few months.

I don't' think you have to worry about them keeping it. Even less worry than with a Glock. 'Cause you got that piece of paper saying it's yours. Push comes to shove, you could contact ATF and tell 'em it was stolen by Officer Jones of the Lexington Kentucky Police Department. Then they need to come up with a real good reason why they have that "unregistered NFA item" in their possession.

Originally Posted by johnlives4christ

why should i carry a copy? is it just so that if i get stopped by the police that they dont assume it's an illegal weapon and arrest me?

When it comes to anything gun-related, you are assumed to be guilty until proven innocent. So, yes, they will assume it is illegal and will attempt to arrest you. Carrying a copy of your paperwork will help to stop that.

[Alpo]

Your question #4. You can take an AOW or a silencer out of state without permission, but SBS, SBR and Machine guns need permission. But, yes, you can take it anywhere in the state you want, with no problems.

Can't loan it to anybody, though. You can let Buddy shoot it, while you are there with him, but you can't let him take it home to shoot the possum in his kitchen. That would be considered an unregistered transfer.

[johnlives4christ]

so basically, there aren't any problems associated with owning a sbs as long as i dont want to carry it across the country.

what about if i were to decide i didnt want it anymore. could i put a regular length barrel on the gun and sell it as normal? is their procedure for this or is it always a SBS after it's registered?

do they have to stamp any new numbers or anything like that on the gun? or do they just go by the serial number?

also, what if it gets stolen through either a home or vehicle break in? anything different then with an ordinary firearm?

[Alpo]

Selling it would be difficult, unless it was something really special. The new buyer would have to register it and pay the 200 dollars tax. That would make the amount that I would be willing to pay you quite a bit less than otherwise.

I have been told that you cannot sell a gun you made, but I don't believe that. If you did sell it, however, you would have to pay the 11% excise tax on firearms.

The gun has to be stamped with the maker's name and address. Just like your 642 says Smith & Wesson, Springfield Mass., since you would be making the gun, it would have to say "John Whatever, Wherever Kentucky".

Stolen NFA items have to be reported to the ATF, along with reporting it to the cops.

I think, though am not absolutely sure, that you can have an SBS removed from the NFA roles. You don't get your 200 bucks back, but it gets removed from the registration, it is no longer considered an SBS, and can be transferred just like any other gun. Just as long as the barrel is over 18 inches and the overall is greater than 26. I know that a machine gun is always a machine gun, but I think SBSs and SBRs can be removed. Operative word here is THINK.

[dld]

you can buy a black powder muzzle loading shot gun and cut it down with out any of the hassle, if you don't want to go through the hassle of paying $200 tax one

[johnlives4christ]

Originally Posted by Alpo

The gun has to be stamped with the maker's name and address. Just like your 642 says Smith & Wesson, Springfield Mass., since you would be making the gun, it would have to say "John Whatever, Wherever Kentucky".

really, so the gun would always have my name on it, and place of manufacture.

i remember that you had a rossi double barrel that you cut (or had cut) down. so you had to have your name and location of manufacture imprinted on the receiver?

i wonder if i ever had a run in with the police, and they seen the gun was stamped with my name would they just take my word for it that it was legally owned, should i not happen to have the paper with me. i guess it would depend on the cop, and what his problem was, and if i knew him.

most likely i would not cut the barrel i have off, i would purchase a 14" barrel because i would want the front sight bead on a riser block, and it'd be easier to buy one like that then to have it fixed right.

i guess my local gunsmith would be able to do the engraving? or would it have to be done by the atf or inspected?

[johnlives4christ]

Originally Posted by dld

you can buy a black powder muzzle loading shot gun and cut it down with out any of the hassle, if you don't want to go through the hassle of paying $200 tax one

i would LOVE a double barrel black powder shotgun. although i would keep it long for hunting and shooting clays. been a dream of mine for a while, but i'd want an original in good condition, and that dont come cheap.

[Alpo]

You could do it, yourself. Your local smith should be able to, either engrave or stamp. A machine shop should be able to, doing acid etch.

If you run afoul of a police officer, and you have what appears to be something illegal, and have no proof to the contrary, they will arrest you. If you have one of those seven-day-pill containers, and have percadan in it, the cop will arrest you. The charges will be dropped when you can prove that you have them by prescription, but they will arrest you. If they pulled you over for some reason, and you did not have your drivers license with you, you would get ticketed. They might void the ticket if you showed up at the cop-shop with license in hand, but you would get ticketed at the time.

I wore my Rossi to a cowboy match. Had my paper folded up in a ziploc bag in my shirt pocket. I showed it to half a dozen people there. One was the manager of the range. He wanted to be sure there wasn't an illegal gun on his range. Two were off-duty deputies working security in the parking lot. The others were off-duty cops that were there to compete, and saw what might have been a crime in progress. Soon as I showed 'em the paper, everything was cool. Legally I didn't have to show it to any of 'em. Only one I'm required to show proof to is the ATF. But if I hadn't shown the range manager, he probably would have told me to leave. If I hadn't shown those off-duty cops, they would have probably pulled out a cell phone and gotten some on-duty cops out there to arrest me.

Carrying the paper just makes things SO much easier.

I have dedicated gun cases for my NFA stuff. When THIS gun goes to the range, it gets taken in THIS case. Underneath the foam, in each case, is a copy of the paperwork. If I've got the gun, then I have the case, and if I have the case, then I have the paperwork.

[johnlives4christ]

thats a good idea alpo. it doesnt sound like it's too much trouble, or at least it wouldnt be for me since i would be using the gun on my private range and for home defense. all i'd have to do is keep a copy of the paper with my vehicle registration.

[ampaterry]

One thing I would look at is penetration, John.

I once had the opportunity to fire a 12 gauge break-action pistol.
It had been sawn off to something like a 4" barrel beyond the 3" chamber.
It sure looked mean!
But I shot at a tin-can about ten feet away using 2 3/4" #6 shot, and it had just a couple small dents in it. Firing at it point blank, it had a lot of dents in it, but this thing would not even penetrate the first side. Honestly, If I put on my motorcycle jacket, someone could shoot me dead center and I would not even be in pain from this thing.

IMHO, if anyone is using a very short barrel for a shotshell, they had better load their own and use a VERY fast powder, or they will just make the crook mad if they shoot him.

I sure would like to see some formal penetration tests using the 2" Judge - -

[johnlives4christ]

i think with a 14 inch barrel the penetration with 00 buck would be sufficient i might look up some stuff bout it though

[ampaterry]

John, I agree; 14 inch should capture enough energy to be effective.

[johnlives4christ]

i would think that police and military would not use 14" barrels if they weren't just as effective as 18. the only real disadvantage i see is that the gun would have the potential for loss of magazine capacity. while my gun doesnt have an extend mag at this point, i would put a 1 round wilson extension on it if i was to go with a short barrel

[lawdawg]

Originally Posted by johnlives4christ

i would think that police and military would not use 14" barrels if they weren't just as effective as 18. the only real disadvantage i see is that the gun would have the potential for loss of magazine capacity. while my gun doesnt have an extend mag at this point, i would put a 1 round wilson extension on it if i was to go with a short barrel

They are quite effective, though it is arbitrary whether they are as effective as the 18". One primary reason the police and military uses the shorter barrells has nothing to do with effectivness, but maneuverability. The shorter guns are easier to handle in close quarters combat especially when you are making entry with a group (i.e SWAT team). The same reason M4s are used in this capacity in lieu of the longer M16s. My department issue shotgun is a 18" Remington 870.

[johnlives4christ]

i asked the gunsmith what he thought of the idea today.. he said he didnt see much need of going shorter than 18 unless i was going to be having a gun fight in a closet lol

for now i guess im probably going to be putting the idea on hold. i'll just use the money for another 22 or a magazine extension for the shotgun.

heck... might as well take the wife out to dinner or something too

[ampaterry]

Originally Posted by johnlives4christ

i asked the gunsmith what he thought of the idea today.. he said he didnt see much need of going shorter than 18 unless i was going to be having a gun fight in a closet lol

for now i guess im probably going to be putting the idea on hold. i'll just use the money for another 22 or a magazine extension for the shotgun.

heck... might as well take the wife out to dinner or something too

Odd you would mention taking the wife out to dinner with the $$, John.
Some years ago, as Valentines day approached, I asked my better half what she would like for that occasion.
She asked for a Winchester pump 12 with 18" barrel.
And she got it, too.

Lord, I do love that woman!!!

It had a vent. rib, so I had a smith do the bobbing on it to make sure it looked good, then I mounted a small flashlight on it for night use -

[johnlives4christ]

the wife does have a few guns on her wishlist. a glock 19, a 1911 in 9mm, a smith 617 10 shot 22 lr and a ruger 10-22 with pink stock. i think she needs a 410 riot gun and an m1 carbine or ar15 with collapsible stock, but she dont

[Conman]

Let me bring up an older post. There is a Short Barreled Shotgun that you do not have to get a federal license for:

http://www.serbu.com/top/superShorty.php

[carver]

Alpo, I have a question on this subject. Do you have to pay the $200 for each NFA item?

[Alpo]

Yes. It's a tax on the registration of the item itself. So, if you buy, say, a silencer, for 500 bucks, it's gonna actually cost you 700, 'cause you got to pay the government the 200 tax. Then if you sell it to john, then plus whatever you charge him for it, he's gonna have to pay the government 200 tax.

There is a class of NFA items called "any other weapon", where the tax is only 5 dollars. But, once again, if you buy an AOW, you also pay the Feds 5 bucks, and if you buy another one it's another 5 bucks, and if you sell it the new owner has to pay them 5 bucks.

You got your machines guns, which are their own class, your Short Barreled Rifles and/or Short Barreled Shotguns, which once were full size and have been cut down, and your silencers. These all have the 200 dollar tax. If you get a short rifle or shotgun that never was full size - that is, it never had a shoulder stock on it, then that is considered an Any Other Weapon, and it only costs 5 bucks to register it. AOWs also include guns that don't look like guns - cane guns, for instance.

There's another class, called "Deadly Devices". These are rifles bigger than 50 caliber, and bazookas and 40mm grenade launchers. I don't know how much they cost, as I've never had anything to do with them.

[Alpo]

Conman, as has been said a time or twenty, IT IS NOT A LICENSE. It is a one-time tax. If you read that link you posted, you will see that it says, quite clearly >the SUPER-SHORTY is considered an AOW (Any Other Weapon) and can be transferred with a $5 stamp! < You still have to pay, you just don't have to pay as much.