HELP, EXPERTS, PLEASE!!! Need help with identification - 1840's? who? where? value?<

[bogey54311]

I will give you every drop of info I have on my Gun.
(I'm not a gun guy so bear with my lack of wording)

This gun had a light restore about 35 years ago.
The gun is 100% original except for the wood rod under the barrel.
The gun was found in Massachusetts in a house built in the 1740's.
I was told back then this gun was made in the 1840's.
Other than the awesome engraving all over the (nickel?) silver, when the gun was cleaned up, the restorer found a name on the bottom of the barrel, above the forestock.
I'm not sure how to take the gun apart to get to the name, but I remember the name he told me. I might be a hair off, so someone please correct me if I am wrong.

Muzzy & co.

I am trying to find out who made this, where they were from, how many of these there might be, and finally, a value.

The forestock looks like it has a small crack, but it is a check in the wood, not a crack. It is very solid. (one thing I do know is wood).

The (2) triggers work. The restorer said this gun was used very little in it's life. He seemed to think it was a fancy hunting gun.

I've had this gun for a long time and parts of it have always been a mystery to me.

Thanks to all ahead of time for your help.

Here are some photos, I have more if you need them for identification. Just let me know.


Chris
bogey54311@yahoo.com

[Alpo]

In the top pic, there is a yellow oval with a dark line through it. That should be a wedge.



See the rectangular loop on the bottom of the barrel, underneath the sight? It fits into a recess in the stock, and the wedge goes through the stock, from left to right usually, and through that loop. That's what holds the barrel in. Drive out the wedge and lift the muzzle of the gun up. Notice, at the back end of the barrel, there is a hook? This is called a "hooked breech". You lift the muzzle and the hook slides out of its recess, and you remove the barrel from the action and stock.

[Alpo]

Take out the ramrod before attempting to lift the barrel. If you don't, the ramrod will break.

[Lowsonoma21]

Originally Posted by Alpo

Take out the ramrod before attempting to lift the barrel. If you don't, the ramrod will break.

haha thats for sure

Nice gun man. Looks like its sitting at 1000 at least to me, prolly more. Is the lock rusty, or is it browned? I cant tell. Check for an engraving on it, possibly a name. I found an old gun n didnt realise it was written right on it, it was hard to tell at first though. If it was browned or something maybe its making it hard to see.

If you take the barrel of like Alpo says, the lock should slide out literally. Check for screws of coarse, From one of the pics I can see one on the lock so. All youll need is a flat head, with a pin and hammer to take it appart, It's real easy. I got an old gun like urs, but it doesnt have the double triggers, but will still come apart basically the same. Like you said it's deff. solid wood, they dont make em like that anymore.

Heres my gun if you wanna get an idea of how shell come appart:

http://s212.photobucket.com/albums/c...ma21/?start=20

You dont gotta take it all apart, just get the lock out, and get some pictures of it for some of the pros on this forum to determine what it is!

hope that helps

[Buffalochip]

CAUTION--THIS GUN DOES NOT HAVE A HOOKED BREECH-DO NOT FORCE THE BARREL. Most guns of the era do not have hooked breeches, while most reproductions do. The photo that you posted of the top of the breech clearly shows the barrel is attached to a tang with a single screw holding it to the stock. That screw must carefully be removed with the proper size screwdriver before the barrel can be lifted out. DON'T bugger up the screw--it has gone this long without being damaged--don't ruin it now!

Once you have it out, take a couple pictures of any markings on the bottom of the barrel so you don't have to do this again. While you have the barrel out, you might as well clean the barrel innards with hot soapy water and bronze brush. Then pour boiling water down the barrel until it runs clear and carefully set it aside (on end) to dry before oiling it well throughout.

It appears to be a hawken-style mountain gun of the 1840-1860 era. Please post the pictures of what you find. BUT whatever you do, do no harm to the gun. I've removed these barrels before and they can fit very tightly.

[Buffalochip]

One more thing--the barrel and lock on this gun have been browned--they aren't rusty, that's the way it was made--I wouldn't mess with the finish (or anything else). Removing the lock probably isn't necessary and can damage the wood. Any marks you find on the lock's innards (or anywhere else on the lock) probably indicate the maker of the lock only. Many gunsmiths bought locks from vendors rather than make their own. This is also true of some barrels--markings under the barrel may indicate the barrel maker only.

[old semperfi]

as was said before,if you do find a name it will in all likleyhood be the maker of the lock-trigger machanism.also as said before it should not be hooked breech.a good gunsmith will be able to tell you if it is safe to shoot.i dont want to offend but i have seen a lot of the types of rifles around at flea markets and farmers market and most people buy them as wall hangers.value is as much as you can get,is it an antique?yes is it valuable,probably not.if you can find a buyer i would think around 2-400.00 old semperfi ps,after all i have said i could be wrong.

[Jim K]

Most firearms collectors concentrate on a relatively few well defined "collectibles" and ignore everything that doesn't fit.

That appears to be a very nice, and nicely preserved, hunting rifle of the 1840's. I believe it is fairly valuable (in the thousands) and would be more valuable if a maker's name can be found. It is a type of rifle common to the area in which it was found.

There is no sign that it has a hooked breech, and those were not common at the time it was made. If you remove the barrel and lockplate, please take care. It looks like there has already been some wood chipped out where the lockplate was removed at some time in the past.

Jim

[Buffalochip]

I concur with Jim, a gun of this style, quality is very collectible and should sell for a pretty penny. I would think at least $1,500 on the low end, probably twice that much.

[Buffalochip]

I concur with Jim, a gun of this style, quality is very collectible and should sell for a pretty penny. I would think at least $1,500 on the low end, probably twice that much.

I did a quick Google search of "Muzzy & Co." and it looks like trackofthewolf.com had a New Hampshire made target rifle of similar vintage made by D.H. Hilliard with a "Muzzy & Co." barrel, which tells me "Muzzy & Co." was a barrel maker/supplier. Hilliard is a reknowed gun builder of the mid 1800s.

[Jim K]

By the 1840s and 1850s there were not many of the old "do it all" gunmakers left, at least in the settled areas. Most by then were buying at least some parts and others were essentially custom assemblers, like custom gunsmiths today.

Even in the days of the flintlock Pennsylvania rifle, most makers purchased furniture and other parts from suppliers. This has led to the interesting result that collectors talk about this or that "school", based mainly on the designs of patchboxes and other decoration, not realizing that the "school" consisted of gun makers who patronized the same supplier of those items.

I have little doubt that the gun in question was of that kind, not a truly hand made firearm, and I would not be surprised to find a barrel maker's name and a lock maker's name on those parts. Still, it is a nice gun.

Hi, old semperfi, if you find guns of that quality and condition at farm markets for $200, I strongly suggest buying them. One can do quite nicely at country auctions and out-of-the-way antique shops if one knows what to look for.

Jim

[underhammer]

Per Frank Sellers book American Gunsmiths-Muzzy&Co. were from Worcester, Mass.,1857-1861 and produced "Percussion 1/2 stock and barrels." Successors to Hitchcock, Muzzy&Co. Hope thats helpful.

[Jim K]

The 1840's date was apparently verbal history, so 1857 does not surprise me; that general type of gun was made as late as the Civil War and some old timers had percussion rifles made even into the 1880's. In those days, gun buyers were often very conservative, not trusting new designs and ideas until proven. Plus, a percussion rifle could use loose powder and caps, which were available everywhere, unlike factory cartridges which were often scarce, expensive, or became obsolete quickly.

Jim

[chadahar]

Hitchcock & Muzzy were rifle makers from 1840 to 1857. In 1857 they became Muzzy and Co., Barrel makers only. I have a nice 1/2 stock heavy Hawken style gun of 54 caliber and it has the early Hawken style forward action lock on it a pattent breech, but with a long tail breech plug. the pattent breech has two lines of inlaid brass or gold(?) in it. the BBL is marked on the bottom flat Hitchcock & Muzzy. it is of the early style Hawken type. It has a giant brass star in the left cheek piece area. there is no raised cheek piece on the gun which helps date the gun to the late 1840-1850's. it appears that the brass escutcheons were slver plated as is the inlay for the lock bolt. Ramrod entry ferrule is very well done and possible was plated also as was maybe the trigger guard, (single(trigger and set) set trigger replacement), Butt plate and toe plate may have been plated as well, but rifle has seen extensive use, but is almost in shootable condition. Stock is in need of some light repair, but stock is almost black with age and use. I have no doubts that this gun probably saw the same use , at the same places that Hawkens did.

I intend to spend the long winter nights lightly restoring this gun. Wish it could talk and tell me how it made the trip from N.Y. state to Southern CA. I'll need to eat my Wheaties as this rifle weight about 12-16 lbs.