Kel Tec Sub 2000 carbine

[johnlives4christ]

i am interested in a kel tec sub 2000 carbine. one that would match my glock 22.

anyone have any experience with them? how do they hold up with extensive shooting? anything prone to breakage?

from what research i've done they are pretty reliable. is this so? any particular ammo they dont like?

[Esteban]

I don't own one, but do have a P-11. Here is a forum ;

http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?board=102

[Carne Frio]

I have one in Glock 17 flavor. It has been reliable
and accurate. I have not found any factory ammo
that does not work. It has about 800 rounds shot
through it.

The real beauty of it is that you can fold it up and
carry it with many magazines without taking up
much space. It is also inexpensive. Here is the
link to the Keltec Owner's Group:

http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?board=102

[ofitg]

I bought one in 9mm set up for Beretta 92 mags, but I haven't shot it much. I ran a few mags through it, about 100 rounds altogether, and I got two jams. Not bad for a "break in" session. My initial impression is favorable, even though I'm not a fan of plastic guns.
The plastic grip housing was molded a hair too long, which made it difficult to latch the mags into place - fixed that with a file.
Also, there's enough friction inside the grip housing to prevent the empty mags from dropping out when you press the mag release. I fixed that by adding a 2-rd extension to each mag; gives me something to grab onto and yank em out.

IIRC, the owners manual warns against using aluminum-cased ammo.... I'm not sure why.

My "senior citizen" eyes don't work well with open sights, so I bought a "swing-to-the-side" scope mount. I've got an old Normark Singlepoint on it now... I've heard that the zero wanders with this scope mount, but I might not even notice it with the Singlepoint's 12-MOA dot.
Hopefully, this Arizona summer will fade away in the next few weeks, and it will be fun to go to the range again.

[johnlives4christ]

it doesnt have a fluted chamber does it? that might be a reason not to use aluminum cased ammo

[ofitg]

Just dragged it out and looked in the chamber - no flutes that I can see.

I'm not really sure about that factory warning - I misplaced the manual, but I just found an online version - http://pdf.textfiles.com/manuals/FIR...ec_sub2000.pdf

Skimming through those 20 pages, I didn't see the warning. Maybe it was just a fluke of my imagination.

[Bigdog57]

My views on the Sub2000......

A buddy bought one awhile back, and we wrung it out on the range. I was able to directly compare it to my Hi-Point Carbine.

Good points.....
Small and compact, and the folding feature makes it easily carryable in any briefcase or laptop style bag. Great for us motorcyclers too. Good concealable weapon for SHTF bug out use.
Reasonable accurate despite the sights.
Good reliability - ate many types of 9mm ammo with nary a hitch.

Bad points........
Design is a "Plumber's Nightmare". Feels like it's put together from Home Depot's hardware section......
Sights are horrid. The plastic front sight can't be adjusted without damaging it.
Ergonomics and feel - oh gosh, where does it end? I'm a big&tall Silverback, and it was just way too short in stock length. I'd do better with a Chipmunk .22..... My buddy is a short guy - even he found it too short.
The Glock magazines get tough to load down near the 28th to 30th round. He really should have gotten the Beretta magazine version, as he has two Taurus PT92 pistols and the mags could be easily modded for this gun. But he still has the Glock mags that his old Ingram M11 used, so that was a determining factor.
He put a red dot sight on it - but that removes the folding feature - really this gun's only redeeming feature.
We were both very unimpressed. He still has it - neither of us generally sells guns, even those we don't like. We just get something that works better.He liked my M995 H-P. He now has the .40SW version and shoots it a lot more.

My advice would be, IF you like and need the compactness and foldability, get it. Otherwise, there are a lot of better carbines out there.

[ofitg]

I second Bigdog's assessment of the Sub2000's front sight - it was very poorly engineered. The front sight blade is a piece of plastic clamped between two screws. If you want to adjust elevation, you loosen the clamp screws and manually slide the plastic sight blade up/down. If you want to adjust windage, you move the plastic sight blade left/right by loosening one screw while tightening the other.
The kicker is, those screws are anchored by threads in the PLASTIC front sight housing. It is ridiculously easy to strip those threads by over-tightening the screws.

Bigdog57, did your friend consider the "swing-to-the-side" scope mount? This mount consists of two clamps which pivot on the barrel. When you swing the scope fully to the left, it is possible to fold up the gun -



Note - the clearance cut-outs in the plastic forend establish the distance between the two clamps - the scope must have a one-inch tube which is at least four inches long.

Also, as mentioned previously, this scope mount is notorious for wandering zeroes. This would be especially noticeable if the scope had any magnification to speak of. I was lucky enough to find an old Singlepoint with a big 12-MOA dot. Perhaps some type of 1X EER scope would also work (?)

[johnlives4christ]

i did notice that the front sight was crappy when i looked at the sub in the store. honestly i've been thinking about a remedy for that. i was thinking maybe what i could do is, if the screws strip out, i could epoxy some 1911 grip bushings in their place and use that... and i could just make a front sight out of a piece of flat metal if needed. if i knew someone with a machine shop, that owed me a favor... a whole new front sight assembly, and rear butt assembly could be fashioned out of aluminum. that would be awesome. so thats not out of the question

i didnt like the rear sight being plastic either... so was thinking about how i could replace that with a metal one.

i dont know what kind of service i would get from kel tec should i have any issues, but i would try them first to see if they would fix any problems.

granted the design isnt perfect. but the gun is inexpensive at around 250-300, so even if i put another 200 dollars into doing extensive mods on the front sight assembly i would not be unhappy if i had a solid performer.

the length of pull and feel of the gun is fine to me, but then again im not picky. im used to shooting an sks length gun, and my wifes crickett, and i prefer a riot gun with about an inch less then standard length of pull.

[ofitg]

Browsing around in various forums, it appears that some guys have gone as far as installing front sight assemblies from different rifles (eg, AK variants).

I don't know how easy it would be, or how much it might cost, but it can be done.

[johnlives4christ]

i haven't seen or heard of anyone modifying the rifle in this way. but if others are like me i imagine that it has been done.. i would want to copy the front sight design pretty close so it could still lock in place when folded. but i might would change the sight blade to an ak style so it would be windage and elevation adjustable more easily

[ofitg]

Here are two examples of front sight overhauls -

http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/Ya...=1233805166/90

http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/Ya...num=1244747021

[group17]

I have a glock 17 version that has been without problem. It shoots any 9mm ammo I put in it ( I don't use steel case) . Keltec makes a cheap snap on stock extension if you think the stock is to short which actually holds the barrel better than stock.
The sights work fine for me. I read you can fit a high point 995TS or AK front sight on it if you hate the Keltec stock one. It is plenty accurate as well. I like it a lot because of the folding feature which allows me to carry it in my pistol range bag. For $300 I wasn't expecting a SIG. Nor was I planning to scope it. Simple is better IMO.

[The Count]

hi all, i have had a K2Sub for several months now. after a week i took a dremel and got rid of those ridiculous plastic sights. then i ordered the butt extension. this makes a big difference. then i removed the hand guard and mounted a UTG tri-rail thingamajiggy....onto which i mounted several sights. a red dot, then a holo sight and lastly a UTG green laser. in my humble opinion the green laser makes the most sense with this gun. the K2Sub is not a hunting rifle nor a sniper rifle. just too cheaply made. but with a laser it actually makes sense up to a max of maybe 50 yards. of course the laser goes a lot further but in my experience accuracy gets pretty bad after 50 yards.

[johnlives4christ]

i dont think i would remove the sights in favor of a scope. although i have seen some neat side folding scope mounts, i dont like optics much on anything other then a sniper rifle or a 22 rifle.

when i get one of these i will definitely be looking to have a front sight assembly made. i have seen where people used an ak style sight post to get windage and elevation adjustment. i am have my mind made up though, i definitely want one of these to fit glock 22 mags

[3/2 STA SS]

Originally Posted by ofitg

I bought one in 9mm set up for Beretta 92 mags, but I haven't shot it much. I ran a few mags through it, about 100 rounds altogether, and I got two jams. Not bad for a "break in" session. My initial impression is favorable, even though I'm not a fan of plastic guns.
The plastic grip housing was molded a hair too long, which made it difficult to latch the mags into place - fixed that with a file.
Also, there's enough friction inside the grip housing to prevent the empty mags from dropping out when you press the mag release. I fixed that by adding a 2-rd extension to each mag; gives me something to grab onto and yank em out.

IIRC, the owners manual warns against using aluminum-cased ammo.... I'm not sure why.

My "senior citizen" eyes don't work well with open sights, so I bought a "swing-to-the-side" scope mount. I've got an old Normark Singlepoint on it now... I've heard that the zero wanders with this scope mount, but I might not even notice it with the Singlepoint's 12-MOA dot.
Hopefully, this Arizona summer will fade away in the next few weeks, and it will be fun to go to the range again.

Alot of firearms companies warn against the aluminum cases due to rim split. They just dont want a law suit and then say '' we told you so.'' I had a rim split on a CCI blazer and it did not effect the gun in any way just sounded weird.

[johnlives4christ]

well i ended up getting a kel tec sub 2000 the other day. i sold a bunch of junk on ebay and bought it with only 12.99 out of pocket.

anyways. first box i had 4 failure to eject malfunctions.

sooooo i enlarged the ejection port. then i shot 3 more mags and had 1 more FTE

sooooo i enlarged the port as big as i could get it and reshaped the ejector. heres a pic of the ejector shape before and after.

i only had 10 rounds to test it with today. didnt want to fight walmart but the gun functioned without problem. first 5 rounds were as normal. the last 5 were singles with an empty mag. most of the FTE's were on the last shot.

i noticed that the empties ejected further and also seemed not to go as foreward as before.

guess we'll see when i get more ammo

[johnlives4christ]

the kel tec never did stop having problems. so i ended up selling it and getting some reloading stuff in swap. everyone said if i shoot a few hundred rounds out of it the problems would have went away. thats BS. guns dont need to be broke in so they eject properly. i can see maybe wearing a burr down here or there... but ejection should be included on a 300.oo+gun

and it had a plastic feed ramp... not very good quality if you ask me.

[The Count]

I have had mine for about a year now.

Here's the deal...

Not many rifles you can fold up to the size of a pizza box.
Mine is in 9MM so I can use Glock 33 round mags!
The gun DOES NOT LIKE WEAK HANDLOADS. Learned this the hard way with multiple trips to the range with all kinds of feed/extract issues. 5.8 grains of power pistol under 115 FMJ works real good. So does 4.2 grains of Bullseye. Do not use anything with Clay's.
I modded the front of the gun with a quad rail and mounted an Eotech 517. Yes Betsy, a $500 scope on a $300 run. I use this combo once a month at our range's action rifle competition. Hard to bead the lightness of the gun with the ruggedness and fast target acquisition of the Eotech.

[johnlives4christ]

i tried 2 different types of factory ammo. federal 180 grain walmart special. if a gun wont run with that then i have no need for it. if i had a machine shop. and enough experience to run it i'd take the basic design and make me a version out of aluminum and steel and plastic the hand guard and butt i dont mind being plastic. but i'd rather the receiver be metal. i love the concept of the folding gun though. just... the quality isnt there for me.

[ofitg]

I have to agree with John regarding the quality of construction - I don't like plastic guns - and the price reflects this. However, as noted, the Sub 2000 has the unique characteristic of fitting into a briefcase, and that appealed to me.

As for the FTE, I imagine it could be the ammo, or perhaps the rifle John bought was a lemon. It happens sometimes. I bought a Ruger 10-22 back in the 70s - everybody else thinks they work great, but I could never get my 10-22 to function properly. When something like that happens, it can sour you on that particular make/model for life.

[johnlives4christ]

Originally Posted by ofitg

I bought a Ruger 10-22 back in the 70s - everybody else thinks they work great, but I could never get my 10-22 to function properly. When something like that happens, it can sour you on that particular make/model for life.

about 5 or 6 years ago i bought a 10-22 and had failure to eject problems with all ammo. sent the gun back to ruger and they sent it back with a long list of new parts. it still did the same thing. stove pipes. so i swappeed it off. about a year later i bought another one. had the same problem. sent it back to ruger... same thing. swapped it.

then about a year ago a friend had one and it run perfect like a belt fed browning. so.... i've heard they are the best thing out there... and i want to try another... hope i get one to brag on because i like them a lot. got the feel of an m1 carbine