"Low Number" 1903 Springfield RIA

[Redneck39]

Hi there folks. Obviously, I am new here. I'm sure I am about to ask you questions that you all have been asked before. However, I'm not sure where to look for the answers to my questions. So, I'm sorry if this bugs any of you guys.

I have a chance to get a "low numbered" 1903 Springfield 30-06. Now, I have read that the low numbered rifles are "not safe". However, the guy that has it, has shot it, and his step-father used it for hunting.

I need to know what to look for that will lower the value, or raise the value of this rifle. He sent me a few pictures, & I will try to upload them here.

Anyways, its serial number is 140xx. Right behind the rear sights that flip up is a marking "U. H." with "Rock Island" stamped below it.
On the barrel, there is a stamp that says "R A" below that a circle that looks like it has flames, below that is another stamp that is "9-43".

That is all the stamps, or markings that I can see in the low quality pictures that were emailed to me. I am hoping someone here with more experience can help me out with its value. Like, what should I look for on the rifle.

I know next to nothing about guns. The only gun I own is a Berreta PX4 Storm .40 cal.... So, if you could be as descriptive as possible, that would be a ton of help.

Thank you guys, in advance. I am now going to attempt attaching some pictures that the guy emailed me.

[Redneck39]

Here are the last of the pictures the guy emailed me.

[Hammerslagger]

Well they made about 1,300,000 of them at SA and RIA before they realized that they had a serious problem with the heat treatment on some rifles and changed either the receiver and bolt alloy at RIA and the heat treat process at SA. The problem is no one knows which rifles like the one pictured are bad; and there is no economical way to tell without destroying the receiver.

The problem with subject rifles is that their bolts and receivers were heat treated by red hot color determined by human eye and not by pyrometer. A number of receivers were "over cooked" (overheated) which allowed the grain structure of the steel to grow, excessively, resulting in a weak and very brittle receiver when quenched and tempered.

The rifle pictured has a replacement "High Number" bolt and a Remington barrel made in 09/1943.

Roughly 30 rifles are known and documented to have had a catastrophic failure. The number of shots fired seems to have had nothing to do with the documented failures. The likely number of actual such failures is likely much higher, as mostly only military failures got documented.

If you want to read the definitive treatise on the subject; it can be found in "Hatcher's Notebook". This book was published by Major General Julian S Hatcher after he retired as chief of the USA's Aberdeen Proving Grounds in MD.

As to shooting one of these rifles today? Do you feel lucky? The rifle pictured was made in 1904. When fired, the internal pressure will jump to about 3741 times atmospheric pressure in about 1/5000th. of a second. {For comparison, that is a about 1000 times faster than it takes the piston of a "crotch rocket" Japanese motorcycle red-lined at 18000 rpm to move up and down once.} Such is a big shock to put on steel that may be dangerously brittle from bad heat treatment.

Personally, my short answer is "NO WAY". I like keeping my eyes and hands intact; and am not inclined, at my old age, to needlessly expose them to unnecessary risks, even though those risks may be less than activities like "Base Jumping" using one parachute.

Hope this is informative.

[dcriner]

I believe that this rifle was rebarreled in Sept 1943. With such an early '03, the danger is the case-hardened receiver. A newer barrel won't alleviate that concern. Chances are slim that it will blow up, but personally, I would not shoot it.

[Redneck39]

I'm not really sure I am looking for a shooter. Personally, I don't have the time to go out shooting. I mostly want my collection of rifles and pistols to grow. I want to own a peice of history. I just dont want to get something that is completely worthless.

I dont expect it be a gun that is worth tens of thousands of dollars. However, I am looking to trade my 89 Chevy 4x4, for this gun. So, I atleast want to be sure the gun is atleast as valuable as my truck. If its a little less than what Id ask for my truck, then that is fine. So long as its not half the price. I wanted $1200-$1500 for my truck. So, if the rifle is about $1000-$1200, then I would be okay with the trade.

Hope this makes sense.

[Hammerslagger]

I just visited one of the major Internet gun auctions. People are trying to start more original rifles (one with CMP paperwork) at $700 to $870 and getting no bids.

The rifle under discussion in this thread appears to have a replacement (back swept handle) bolt, has been drilled for a scope mount, has been refinished, and has been rebarreled by persons unknown.

In my opinion it has little or no collector value. It is more a parts gun for someone that needs parts to restore another gun. Personally, since I would not shoot it, today; I doubt that i would give more than $200 for it. There is not a lot of demand for milled trigger group parts or old rear sights or used WW II '03 barrels, or finger-groove stocks.

Someone else here may well see things differently. It all depends on one's ability to buy and resell so that one does not loose money.

[Redneck39]

Well, that is not really what I wanted to hear. LoL! Thank you for your help and information. I was hoping that the gun might have been worth a bt more. Eh well... Atleast I'm not out any money or trade.

Thanks again for the information and all the help, guys.

[dcriner]

I might give $500-600 for a complete '03 that didn't have any problems. This one, I probably would pass on for almost any price. There are many '03s out there - watch the online gun auctions or go to a gun show. They are not at all rare - and are of limited interest to many collectors. (Most people who ever wanted one probably already have one, and two is one too many.) 50 years ago, or so, many were bought to be sporterized - but now, there is much less interest in that.

Shooting a few rounds is fun, despite the weight and recoil, but after that it tends to become a wall hanger.

Based on the flaming bombs on the replacement barrel, I would say it was rebarreled by a U.S. Arsonal or under contract to Army Ordinance. The newer barrel will help accuracy, but won't reduce the risk of the receiver blowing up. The stock looks pretty decent, so it pobably has been restocked, maybe when it was rebarreled. In 1943, when it was rebarreled, Garand M1s were in major production. '03s at that point were probably slated for training or possibly transfer to U.S. allies. However, '03s continued to be a preferred sniper rifle - conceivably, with the 'scope taps, this was one of those?

I sold a low-number '03 a couple of years ago at auction. I'm not certain, but I think I got about $350 for it. It had an original leather sling and a G.I. cleaning kit in the butt.

You can Google "low number 1903 springfield" to find the cutoff serial no. for the receiver problem. Don't go by this, but I seem to recall no. 56,xxx. The one I sold was 3x,xxx. Some people will buy the low-numbered rifles at full price because they are unaware of the risk.

[Jim K]

Contrary to what has been written, those single heat treated rifles were never "recalled". The Army considered the danger minimal unless some other factors were involved* and ordered that they be kept in service until they had to be rebuilt, at which time the receivers would be scrapped. Early in WWII, the need for rifles was so great that the latter order was rescinded and receivers deemed serviceable were rebarrelled and returned to service.

After WWII, any civilian who had a rifle with a low number receiver could return the receiver (only) through the DCM for replacement with a double heat treated or nickel steel receiver. I tested one that was to be sent back with a hammer; it broke into four pieces, making a believer of me. (I had been firing that rifle the day before, so seeing the pieces drop to the floor caused me a bad moment.)

There are several schools of thought on those rifles, one of which holds that all the ones that were going to blow have done so and those still intact are, therefore, safe. My only comment is to ask how the proponents of this idea know.

Another idea is that there is no danger with standard ammo; that all failures were due to bad ammunition. But, again, there is no way to know this, and some failures appear to have been with normal ammunition.

Yet another "theory" is that there never were any failures, that the whole thing was a plot concocted by a mythical "Gen. Hatcher"** to sell books. You will know the folks who believe that nonsense by their tinfoil hats. Their argument is that there have been no failures since those reported by Hatcher; that is not true, but no one knows how many since there is no means of reporting failures and no central facililty keeping records of rifle failures.

*Most of the destroyed rifles investigated were found to have been fired with defective ammuniiton, including at least one that was fired with a German 7.9 cartridge. The problem was that while defective cartridges might damage any rifle, the SHT receivers were brittle and gas release didn't just strain or bend them, it caused them to blow apart like a grenade. In other words, instead of bulging or bending like most metals, that brittle steel shattered like glass.

** I once met the "mythical" general, so I guess that makes me mythical, too.

Jim