German SA Dagger - The Firearms Forum

YosemiteHam · 11-23-2010, 01:27 AM

Hopefully somebody can help me out identifying if this knife is real and the value. There is a M stamped on the back of the handle and there is some kind of logo on the bottom of the blade but it is getting worn off. It says Alles Fur Deustchland on the blade.

Bill DeShivs · 11-23-2010, 05:51 AM

The "logo" is the most important part. Need a good picture of it.

YosemiteHam · 11-23-2010, 02:46 PM

Here are some pictures of the worn logo, it's taken from my phone but hopefully they'll work.

Bill DeShivs · 11-23-2010, 04:01 PM

The marking on the BLADE, after Deutschland.

YosemiteHam · 11-23-2010, 04:47 PM

I'm not exactly sure if there is a marking after Deutschland or not. I've done some research on the blade and found that they put the makers mark on the opposite side of the blade. I found a picture on the internet of what I think it is. It says E.P.&S. Solingen and has an etching of someone, I believe to be, thrusting a knife downward. I attached a picture of the etching i found, and some closer pictures of the markings.

Bill DeShivs · 11-24-2010, 09:44 PM

Either that is a rust spot, or the maker's mark was defaced. I doubt it is the mark you pictured, though. Further than that, I can't help. There were more of these made after WW2 than during, and all the later ones are parts knives, or fakes.

22shot · 11-25-2010, 11:53 AM

Here's my 2 cents..

I believe you have an "authentic" dagger.

I don't know who it was issued to; but that red crest on the wooden hilt will identify that.

It is not a "millitary" dress issue; but a "political" one; carried by some official or orginization; Again; the red crest will tell the story.

As for the maker's mark; it may have been obliberated by some pissed off person; lot of that was going around. (this mark was were the grind marks are on your blade)

The blade inscription reads "Everything for Germany".

I've attached pics of a junior officer's dress dagger; pigskin leather; silver trim; and a pic of the makers mark (same area as where yours should be.) on the blade for you to ponder.

It's pretty beat up; but I am intimate with it's history.

stede · 11-28-2010, 07:47 PM

22shot, you have a DLV or NSFK dagger- a pic of the emblem(s) on the top of the scabbard throat will clarify which. The DLV (German Sport Flying Organization) became the NSFK (National Socialist Flying Corps) when the Third Reich dropped the pretense of not re-building their Air Force

.
Yosemite, I agree with 22shot that your SA dagger is authentic but it does have some condition issues- the blade in particular has been thoroughly scrubbed and the maker's logo almost completely obliterated. The only way to ascertain value would be to offer it on one of the dagger sites and see what it brings... the maker's logo E.P.&S. is Ernst Pack and Sohn- that figure is actually a blacksmith swinging a large hammer which is poised over his back.
If you look, the M on the crossguard is actually Mi- this is the unit mark for the SA Gruppe Mitte (there were 27 groups).

22shot · 11-28-2010, 09:00 PM

stede

Thank you for your spot on recognition!

The dagger is indeed a NSFK.

The insignia is a swastika over a 2 bladed propeller; superinposed on a pair of wings on a circle.

The photo isn't the best; but it shows this ( part of the throat opening cuts into the insigna).

Any info on the maker? (the ballon pedler)

Thanks.

stede · 11-29-2010, 07:30 PM

22shot, I do believe that's the earlier DLV stamp...
Your pic is a bit blurred but Gebruder Heller (?) is a known maker of this pattern. The 'ballon peddler' logo is a new one to me- but as you know these firms often used multiple different logos on the blades they sold commercially.
Not a pristine piece but it has that 'been there' look to it!

22shot · 11-29-2010, 08:01 PM

Thanks stede!

Iv'e been trying to I D that peddler for years!

And, yes; the dagger has "been" there; it has quite a history; and your response was another peice of a complex puzzle...

I appologize, YosemiteHam...didn't want to hijac your thread!

YosemiteHam · 11-29-2010, 09:06 PM

No worries 22shot. And thanks for the info stede. Could you recommend a good dagger website?

stede · 11-30-2010, 07:01 PM

germandaggers.com. Probably the best site in the world for info/buying/selling. Let us know how it goes, eh?

YosemiteHam · 12-01-2010, 06:08 PM

For sure, thanks for the website, its great.

11-23-2010, 01:27 AM	#1
YosemiteHam Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: California Posts: 13	German SA Dagger Hopefully somebody can help me out identifying if this knife is real and the value. There is a M stamped on the back of the handle and there is some kind of logo on the bottom of the blade but it is getting worn off. It says Alles Fur Deustchland on the blade. Attached Images -->

11-23-2010, 05:51 AM	#2
Bill DeShivs Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Contributor Posts: 1,467	Re: German SA Dagger The "logo" is the most important part. Need a good picture of it. __________________ Bill DeShivs www.billdeshivs.com

11-23-2010, 02:46 PM	#3
YosemiteHam Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: California Posts: 13	Re: German SA Dagger Here are some pictures of the worn logo, it's taken from my phone but hopefully they'll work. Attached Images

11-23-2010, 04:01 PM	#4
Bill DeShivs Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Contributor Posts: 1,467	Re: German SA Dagger The marking on the BLADE, after Deutschland. __________________ Bill DeShivs www.billdeshivs.com

11-23-2010, 04:47 PM	#5
YosemiteHam Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: California Posts: 13	Re: German SA Dagger I'm not exactly sure if there is a marking after Deutschland or not. I've done some research on the blade and found that they put the makers mark on the opposite side of the blade. I found a picture on the internet of what I think it is. It says E.P.&S. Solingen and has an etching of someone, I believe to be, thrusting a knife downward. I attached a picture of the etching i found, and some closer pictures of the markings. Attached Images

11-24-2010, 09:44 PM	#6
Bill DeShivs Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Contributor Posts: 1,467	Re: German SA Dagger Either that is a rust spot, or the maker's mark was defaced. I doubt it is the mark you pictured, though. Further than that, I can't help. There were more of these made after WW2 than during, and all the later ones are parts knives, or fakes. __________________ Bill DeShivs www.billdeshivs.com

11-25-2010, 11:53 AM	#7
22shot V.I.P. Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: U.S.of A. Posts: 376	Re: German SA Dagger Here's my 2 cents.. I believe you have an "authentic" dagger. I don't know who it was issued to; but that red crest on the wooden hilt will identify that. It is not a "millitary" dress issue; but a "political" one; carried by some official or orginization; Again; the red crest will tell the story. As for the maker's mark; it may have been obliberated by some pissed off person; lot of that was going around. (this mark was were the grind marks are on your blade) The blade inscription reads "Everything for Germany". I've attached pics of a junior officer's dress dagger; pigskin leather; silver trim; and a pic of the makers mark (same area as where yours should be.) on the blade for you to ponder. It's pretty beat up; but I am intimate with it's history. Attached Images Last edited by 22shot; 11-25-2010 at 05:03 PM..

11-28-2010, 07:47 PM	#8
stede V.I.P. Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 92	Re: German SA Dagger 22shot, you have a DLV or NSFK dagger- a pic of the emblem(s) on the top of the scabbard throat will clarify which. The DLV (German Sport Flying Organization) became the NSFK (National Socialist Flying Corps) when the Third Reich dropped the pretense of not re-building their Air Force . Yosemite, I agree with 22shot that your SA dagger is authentic but it does have some condition issues- the blade in particular has been thoroughly scrubbed and the maker's logo almost completely obliterated. The only way to ascertain value would be to offer it on one of the dagger sites and see what it brings... the maker's logo E.P.&S. is Ernst Pack and Sohn- that figure is actually a blacksmith swinging a large hammer which is poised over his back. If you look, the M on the crossguard is actually Mi- this is the unit mark for the SA Gruppe Mitte (there were 27 groups).

11-28-2010, 09:00 PM	#9
22shot V.I.P. Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: U.S.of A. Posts: 376	Re: German SA Dagger stede Thank you for your spot on recognition! The dagger is indeed a NSFK. The insignia is a swastika over a 2 bladed propeller; superinposed on a pair of wings on a circle. The photo isn't the best; but it shows this ( part of the throat opening cuts into the insigna). Any info on the maker? (the ballon pedler) Thanks. Attached Images Last edited by 22shot; 11-28-2010 at 09:02 PM..

11-29-2010, 07:30 PM	#10
stede V.I.P. Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 92	Re: German SA Dagger 22shot, I do believe that's the earlier DLV stamp... Your pic is a bit blurred but Gebruder Heller (?) is a known maker of this pattern. The 'ballon peddler' logo is a new one to me- but as you know these firms often used multiple different logos on the blades they sold commercially. Not a pristine piece but it has that 'been there' look to it!

11-29-2010, 08:01 PM	#11
22shot V.I.P. Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: U.S.of A. Posts: 376	Re: German SA Dagger Thanks stede! Iv'e been trying to I D that peddler for years! And, yes; the dagger has "been" there; it has quite a history; and your response was another peice of a complex puzzle... I appologize, YosemiteHam...didn't want to hijac your thread! Last edited by 22shot; 11-29-2010 at 08:12 PM..

11-29-2010, 09:06 PM	#12
YosemiteHam Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: California Posts: 13	Re: German SA Dagger No worries 22shot. And thanks for the info stede. Could you recommend a good dagger website?

11-30-2010, 07:01 PM	#13
stede V.I.P. Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 92	Re: German SA Dagger germandaggers.com. Probably the best site in the world for info/buying/selling. Let us know how it goes, eh?

12-01-2010, 06:08 PM	#14
YosemiteHam Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: California Posts: 13	Re: German SA Dagger For sure, thanks for the website, its great.