Harrington and Richardson Revolver help

[Old Wheelgun]

Hello. I have an old Harrington and Richardson large frame top break revolver in 32 S&W. It's marked auto ejecting 32 S&W CTGEs on the left side of the barrel so it is a smokeless era gun. Yesterday I took it out of my safe to wipe it down and I noticed that there is something wrong with the action. It has been sitting in there for a while about 5 months and it was oiled with 3 in 1 by my nephew last time I had it out. When I cocked the hammer a few times to check it over I noticed that there was lots of slop in the cylinder meaning that is turns counter clockwise a lot but it doesn't turn to the next chamber when it does this. Then I removed the cylinder to check it and with the cylinder removed, I cocked the hammer all the way back and the hand comes out. But, if you point the gun straight up the hand falls back into the frame. Then, if I lower the hammer the hand comes back out and then there is tension on it which it is supposed to. The hand is supposed to have tension on it when the gun is cocked and shouldn't fall back into the frame. If you press on the hand when the hammer is all the way forward and the trigger is all the way back in the firing position there is spring or tension on the hand and it is out of the frame. I took the gun apart carefully only the hammer, grips, and mainspring to look down in the action to check the parts and everything is there and the curved spring is still on the hand. What could be the problem??? I have never shot the gun because how how good the condition is and I have never dry fired it? Any help is greatly appreciated.

[Gamemaster 760]

The clocking is bad.

At some point you had to notice it.

There are gunsmiths that can rebuild it, but because it was such a cheap gun, it is not worth the bother.

I have a identical gun that was my great grandmothers. She bought it at the company store when she lived in the coal patch community for a couple of dollars.

My brothers once asked my dad why my great grandmother had a pistol, he said because when someone robbed your chicken house you didn't call the police, you shot them.

Dad tried to hunt deer with it one year and he said he was up on a farm and tried to shoot out a window pane on a old barn and couldn't hit it. Put it back up in the rafters. I bought a box of shells for it about 20 years ago and tried to take it deer hunting. Had some deer about 30 yards away and didn't hit a single one.

The gun was known to spit lead when you shot it. That was because the cylinder was not aligned properly with the bore of the bullet and some of the lead was shaved off the bullet as it passed from the cylinder to the barrel.

I took it to a gunsmith to have it repaired and he laughed at me and told me that it wasn't worth his time. Would be like putting new tires on a totalled automobile.

[Jim Hauff]

Old Wheelgun,
If the "hand" is loosely flopping around, there is a broken spring in the action, the one that attaches it to the trigger. A freewheeling cylinder is standard on these, but a floppy pawl is not. Try starting here for parts: http://www.gunpartscorp.com/catalog/...spx?catid=7946
It will probably cost more to fix this than it has commercial value - if it is an heirloom piece, then the value is inestimable.

p.s. IMHO: ANYONE who would attempt to hunt deer with a revolver chambered for .32 S&W cartridge, even the Long version - is irresponsible. That cartridge at 30 yards would, if it hit the animal, most likely result in a wound that wouldn't drop it, but condemn it to a long, painful convalescence or slow death.

[Old Wheelgun]

Thank you Jim. When I took the hammer out and looked down inside, I noticed that the spring on the hand is still connected to the hand in front. The lower part of the spring goes down to the trigger and that part is loose. Is that supposed to be connected to the trigger? The spring on the hand is a flat spring and has a slight curve to it so I don't think it's broke. I don't see any broken pieces down in the action. It is a family heirloom so I would like to fix it.

[Jim Hauff]

Old Wheelgun,
That loose spring hanging down, should be connected to the trigger lug. How you do that, I don't know - I'm a klutz when it comes to working on those minute parts - I generally do more damage. Good luck. Heirloom is good.

Here's a link to Numrich's downloadable pdf schematic: http://www.gunpartscorp.com/catalog/...12A&catid=7943

[Old Wheelgun]

Jim, you mentioned the trigger lug? Is that the hole or notch in the trigger that the bottom of the spring goes into? It looks like there is a hole there or something. If it is, I think that bottom part of the spring may have been maybe silver sautered in place...but i could be wrong. Also, does that spring put tension on the lifter for the double action. The lifter I guess is that bar connected to the trigger that has a hook on it. There is a pin that holds it together to the trigger. That lifter or bar moves forward and backwards only.

[Jim Hauff]

Old Wheelgun,
You're asking for answers beyond my level of expertise. I do NOT want to conjecture and give you bad information. There are several long time gunsmiths and tinkerers on this site that can most likely tell you what you need to know. Start a new thread and ask your question(s) particularly. Good luck, my friend.

[45Auto]

There were several trigger units used in H&R revolvers over the years. If you have a wire spring like the one on the right, the wire must be a tight fit in the hand. The wire must not be able to turn in the hole in the hand. If you can pull the spring out of the hand, then you must find a way to tighten it up.

The hand spring should not be soldered as the heat will take away the temper and the spring will be useless.

The hand springs were made to slide up and down in the hole in the trigger as the trigger is pulled.

Note that the hand spring is an important part, it provides power for the lifter and the hand.

[jlloyd73]

45Auto..

That is great information for the triggers, especially the the pics. Can you also provide info in he sear mechanism and pics for that as well?

[45Auto]

The sear is a rather simple part. It's held in place by a cross pin. The pin which holds the trigger guard in place also provides the pivot point for the single action sear. The spring for the sear is usualy a coil spring located in the trigger guard.

The above image is of the sear and trigger guard from a solid frame H&R revolver. Except for variations in shape and size the general design of the sear remained the same for all of H&R's top brake and solid frame models.

[jlloyd73]

Thanks for the quick response and the pic. According to b.goforth I have a small frame premier sixth variation of this handgun and the trigger is held by 2 pins and not screw. What part exactly would keep the trigger from returning forward and not getting stuck. so far I have seen the sear needs to be found and the hand spring for the lifter, but I am not sure that will truely fix the trigger issue.

[Jim Hauff]

45 AUTO,
Thanks for stepping in, again, and providing tech support and pics - much better than the schematic to see how parts work together.

Note that the second picture shows the trigger guard for a 1st Model, 1st or 2nd Variation American Double Action from circa 1983-84. By the time the Premier was introduced, the trigger guard attachment and some of the internals had been changed. Here's a picture of a 2nd Model 6th Variation Premier (1930s to 1942 time span) PREMIER for reference. Jlloyd, I believe this is what your piece looks like???

[jlloyd73]

You are 100% correct...and as far as I can tell for other posts you are always right on the money. I was curious about one thing though, this gun doesn't have Premier marked on the barrel but it has the same serial #'s stamped on it as the frame.

I also agree, the pics work wonders compared to a schematic. Hopefully I will find the parts I need on Numrich.com to get the fella working right again.

[Jim Hauff]

jlloyd,
Disregard the label on the picture - this needs to be changed - it was an early "diagnosis" which was later changed by Bill when more data on these came in.
Your piece should have grips that have a "hump" at the top that fit into a semi-circular cutout in the frame. I don't have a picture of an actual 6th Variation, but check this one out - it should be closer to what you have and not have the "PREMIER" name stamped into the barrel.

[jlloyd73]

Thank you Jim, you are correct, that is much closer if not exactly like it. I am working on a parts list now to see if I can get the internals working right. It looks like it would only be a $40-$60 investment. I think that is pretty reasonable for a gun that isn't worth much. I am actually trying to get it right for my brother so he can pass it along to his son someday.

[Jim Hauff]

jlloyd73,
Glad we got that straightened out. You're welcome and thanks for thanking. Hope your project works out well.

[Old Wheelgun]

My hand spring has a flat wire. I don't think the end broke off the spring since i cant see or hear any broken pieces inside. However, if the trigger is down...not fully cocked, I can see a small hole in the side of the trigger which I am assuming is the notch in the trigger which the spring goes into. If the gun is pointed up or down, you can see the spring moving in or out of that notch so I don't think it's out of place. What's the problem???

[Jim Hauff]

Old Wheelgun,
Take a look, back up at post #8 by 45 Auto - the trigger on the left - see the pin?
Does the hole, in your trigger look like it's in the same place?
Check the attached pic for location when trigger is assembled.

[Old Wheelgun]

The hole that I mentioned is where the end of the flat spring goes into. It's just forward of the solid pin that connects the lifter to the trigger. It's To the left of your arrow Jim. That hole or notch is visible even when the gun is fully assembled.

[Jim Hauff]

Old - I'm not sure what fits in there. Do you see the faint trace of the pin just to the left of the arrow in my picture? That's about the only thing I can find on any of the models and variations of the Auto Ejecting/Automatics that appears on the triggers themselves????? I'm sorry, but I'm lost.

[drgraham]

The only two H&R All American DA models in 44 I have ever seent, I bought. One works perfectly. The other has a problem I need help with. After pulling the trigger, it stays back and will not return. Don't know what I need to do here but Gun Parts has no trigger return springs. Please email me at dr.graham@live.com THANKS

[Jim Hauff]

drgraham,
Welcome to the forum. The H&R AMERICAN DOUBLE ACTION revolvers chambered for .44 Webley and .44 American Bulldog cartridges are built on what collectors call the "extra large frame" - which is dimensionally larger than the frame used for the .32 and .38 loadings. Most were made during the black powder era (for H&R that ended in 1904) although production seems to have continued on to around 1920-21.
I've not had one apart - but I BELIEVE that the innerds for the standard LARGE frame AMERICAN DOUBLE ACTION should fit this XL frame .44 cal. ???? This, at least to me is an open question.
Try Jack First gun parts at: www.jackfirstgun.com - if what I read on the forums is correct they should have the trigger return spring - you might want to enquire of those folks if the internal parts for the standard frame will fit/work in the XL frame. I, for one, would be interested in hearing about the interchangability - as I have never seen this question come up before. The XL .44s are somewhat obscure and aren't seen very often. I only have several of them, all pre - 1905, all though I've seen pics of some post 1905 smokeless capable pieces with the cartridge stamping on the left barrel flat. All the .44s I've seen have a hinged loading gate on the right side of the frame.
For those who haven't seen one of these, here's a couple pics:

[DRIZ10225]

Originally Posted by Jim Hauff

Old Wheelgun,
You're asking for answers beyond my level of expertise. I do NOT want to conjecture and give you bad information. There are several long time gunsmiths and tinkerers on this site that can most likely tell you what you need to know. Start a new thread and ask your question(s) particularly. Good luck, my friend.

[DRIZ10225]

I have an Allen Wheelock 36 cal. navy revolver 1861 one of five hundred made. I am looking for the cylinder rod, anyone out there thaat can help would be appreciated.
MY E-MAIL ADDRESS IS DRIZ10225@HOTMAIL.COM.
Thanks for your time. Dan

[Crippled Eagle]

Hello All
Sure am glad I found this forum! Seems as if there is a huge amount of knowledge here.
I'd like help please with IDing a Harrington and Richardson revolver. It has a bit over a 3" barrel, it says on the left side of the barrel: 32 S.&W. CTGE.. On the top of the barrel it states Harrington & Richardson Arms Co. Worcester, Mass. U.S.A. No patent dates. This is a hammerless break top 6 shot revolver. It appears it was nickle plated with a blued trigger guard. There is on the front strap of the gun the numbers 193001. I am unsure how to remove the cylinder to check for that number so any guidance in that area is welcomed. This has the target on the grips and a "sunflower" like raised area around the screw for the grips. On the cylinder are stamped the numbers 193 001 I have no ability right now to take pictures our I would post some. Seems the digital camera has sprouted legs.
I am sure there are many on here that can ID this and I thank you in advance for your efforts!
Regards
Marvin