Antique British SUTHERLAND Percussion Pistol Question

[laptopps]

Hi! I am new here to thefirearmsforum.com and have a couple of questions about a British Sutherland pistol that I bought today. Today, I was perusing through Craigslist.com and was able to buy this for $520. Yea!

That being said, my wife and I LOVE collecting antiques and this gun is one that I want to cherish for a long long time. The seller didn't have much history, other than she bought it from a 35 year-old guy about 4 years ago who inherited it from his dad. That guy just knew that his dad had it all his life, but didn't know the history beyond that.

I know NOTHING about pistols (like before today, I would have identified this as a "flintlock" pistol...how wrong I am!) What can you guys tell me about this gun in terms of age, caliber, maker history, price I SHOULD have paid, and any other interesting information that you might be able to add.

I sincerely appreciate your time and thank you, in advance, for your replies!

Have a GREAT day!

Jeff Jones
jnpjones@msn.com

[BETH]

welcome to the forum i can't help u on this but i am sure someone will

[laptopps]

Hey Beth...thanks...I have done a lot of reading on these forums and all the posters seem great. Thanks!

[BETH]

everyone is out to help if they can, i know they helped me a lot nice bunch of people. Nice pictures u sent now i am waiting with u to see what that pistol is

[22shot]

Laptopps

Welcome to TFF.

I wish more people would post pictures with their questions!
Yours are excellent.

I believe you have a British pocket precussion (Cap lock; not Flintlock) pistol; .41 or .44 caliber; about 1840-1850.
It loks like it has a bronze/brass frame; and there is what appears to be a "proof" mark on the bottom of the barrel; repeated on the frame (pic with you holding unto The grip).

My screen resolution isn't that great; but I think these marks represent a "proof" house of the period.

Check them out under magnification; and you will know a bit more about it's history.

You did good with the purchase price; although I'm suprised that a "firearm" was on Craigs List!

[jack404]

22 Shot is pretty spot on

[laptopps]

Now that you mention it, I don't think that the word "gun" was anywhere on the Craigslist ad and that may be how it passed the sensors. I hadn't even thought about the fact that CL doesn't allow any guns at all. I am just really glad that I was able to purchase it for that price!



I have posted two up-close pictures of the "proof" marks on the bottom of the pistol. What is a "proof" house and what could that tell me about the history??

Thanks again for the time!

[jack404]

Proof marks..

http://www.gunaccessory.com/Proof_Marks/proofmarks.htm

http://www.phoenixinvestmentarms.com...Proofmarks.pdf

hope this helps...

if you wish to go further in research , this is the research facility of the proof house ...
http://www.gunproof.com/Museums/research.htm


from the Pic i think the proof is this one

and matches what we already know about the pistol


this one is in the catalougue now at 750 GBP ( 1800 USD ?? )

http://www.gunstar.co.uk/Pistol-Hand...e-gs16890.aspx

and nowhere as nice as yours may i say ..

fun fact for you , in the day they where called a muff pistol as you often carried them in a muff ( fur wrap to keep your hands warm)

[Big ugly]

I was looking through and I got nuttin but the same proof Jack has got, Try this, take a pice of clay, simple clay like playdough, or even bubble gum, Press into the proof mark that way the details can be raised. It will give you a mold of what the proof looks like, Hold it in front of a mirror and that might give you enough details to see if it is the same proof Jack has showed you. You want to get real creative, if you have an ink stamp, dip the mold in it, or even dip the clay (Or Gum) in a dark colored fingernail polish and stamp it LIGHTLY on a piece of paper. You Just might get enough detail to get a real ID on the Proof Stamp

[jack404]

Bluetac!!!! the put in the freezer for a few minutes to make it harder ( playdough has a acid added to make it antibacterial and will eat gun metal !!!)

post # 7 first pic the mark on the bronze ? you can see the "C" of the proof

[laptopps]

You guys are stinkin' amazing with your knowledge! I should have some wax around here that I could use, but I did a VERY upclose picture/comparison and I think you are SPOT ON!!

http://www.phoenixinvestmentarms.com...Proofmarks.pdf seems to say that this mark was between 1868-1925...didn't think that this gun was as late as 1868?!? Could it be??

[Big ugly]

I know you can see the "C" the proof Jack. I was tryin to make it a difinitive answer here for the Nay Sayers LOL. I did not know about the Acid in the Play dough though. Glad you caught that Jack.

[22shot]

laptopss

Can you post a closeup pic or two of that "thing" on top of the grip; behind the frame tang?

I can see parts of it in some of the pics; but where it shows completely; it is in the dark.

I would like to identify this (if I could)...I've never seen anything like it.

There are some great people on this site!

[laptopps]

Hey 22...you got it. If you are talking about what I think you are it might be a safety. It slides forward and backward about 1/4 of an inch and when it is slid totally forward, it keeps you from cocking the pistol ALL the way back. (there are 2 levels for it to cock). I may be totally off base, but that was my getting-more-educated thought.

Also, from these posted pics, you can see inside that the hammer is a bit broken ("hammer"?? - I don't know if this is the right term for that part). The gun will cock to both positions, but will not dry fire as it is not spring loaded to make it go forward.

I know, I know...a newbie that doesn't know the names of the parts to the pistol, but I love to learn and thanks again for your time!

[22shot]

Laptopp

Thanks!
Did't have a clue as to what that gizmo was; never saw a "safety" on a 1880's pocket pistol ( usually; the "half cock" posistion of the hammer is the "safety'). Learned something new.

This little gun has that; plus the tang mounted one. Neat (and VERY rare).

As to the hammer flopping around; it's probably due to a broken mainspring (not a "cocking lever").

If you care to; you could (could being the key word) remove the hammer and upper to expose the problem in the frame. You may be able to match it up with a mainspring availible from Dixie Gun Works; call them; they are very knowledgeble.

As I posted; you did very good; The seller thought he had a busted piece of junk!
His loss; your gain.

[BullShoot]

As a suggestion - if you really want to see the insides, don't try to remove the hammer. If you don't object to the risk of further messing up the screws, you can remove the wood - which will expose the mechanism.

Yes, as noted that is a safety, but it is quite common on these little muff pistols. Not rare at all.

It is a nice piece, a box-lock percussion muff pistol in decent condition, from a respected maker. It is however, considerably earlier than 1880's - perhaps by 40 or so years.

BullShoot

[jack404]

OK i took a look at the pheonix document again , fact it incorrect .. checked again the master proof register ( a book) and its incorrect

Birmingham
view mark

1813-1904
From Notes on the proof of shotguns & other small arms

this is the correct usage of that stamp on pistols and small arm's but was used later for SHOTGUNS between that dates the Pheonix document quotes , sorry i've been told it was incorrect before ..

http://www.dave-cushman.net/shot/proofmarks.html this has the correct dates for all weapons

[jack404]

and a bit of furher reaseach shows that style of box lock was stopped production by Sutherland in 1847 so it predates 1847 for sure ,

the pattern bocloxh there is to the 2-1 configuration ( or close to 2-1) after 47 a new design came through and they used that which was closer to 3-2 ratio of size

( explaining here ... the older box locks where twice as long as they where high to look at or 2-1 , later they worked out how to make them shorter or about 3-2 ratio) this predates that change by sutherland which came in 1847 so my guess and only a guess its a post mid 20's peice as the butt is plain, but pre 1840's as it is still highly ornate , people became more austeer or things not as fancy around then, dunno why)

so my guess 1825-1840 ..

[laptopps]

Yesterday, I had done a VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY careful teardown so that there would be no marks of any kind that I did it. The hammer was broke (as you can see inside the pistol in post #14), but other than that, everything else looks great.

Would it help guys on here (and be interesting to you too) if I did another CAREFUL teardown and showed pictures step by step??

[22shot]

Laptopps

If I had the gun I would try to restore it's function; but then that's the way I am.
(and I am pleased with the results).

In this case; I'm just working a keyboard; and that's it: no way will I know what little supprises may pop up. The little gun has value; I'd feel really bad if things messed up along the way; I couldn't fix ithat with a keystroke.

Although I'm currious about the "fix"; it's your gun, time and money.

And your decission...

[Jim K]

Well, my sources show Sutherland (sorry I don't have a first name) active in London from about 1790, so if it was the same man who worked to 1847, he had a long career. Of course, it was common and traditional for a son to take over his father's work, so it might not have been the same man. But the flintlock on the Gunstar site certainly has the same characteristics as the caplock shown by Laptopps; if not by the same man, they are almost certainly from the same shop.

The "gizmo" on top is a safety. When the cock or hammer* is cocked (all the way back), the safety is pushed forward to lock it. The idea, as with modern safeties, is to allow the gun to be carried at full cock yet not fire if the trigger is accidentally pulled. The safety is designed to pull the cock/hammer back slightly off the sear, preventing the gun from firing when the safety is released if the trigger was pulled while it was on.

I am not sure about calling that gun a "muff pistol". That term was used in the U.S. for a smaller pistol. I think that would be characterized as a pocket pistol; they were often carried in pairs. I don't know how rare Sutherland pistols may be, but the general type of pistol is not rare. They were very popular; nearly every gun maker in England tried his hand at them and the most famous names appear on them.

*cock for a flintloock; hammer for a percussion or cartridge gun

Jim

[BullShoot]

Maybe they had bigger muffs in England ??

[jack404]

Box lock where very common Jim , i have two both by different makers ( H Nocks ( son of S Nocks) and G Noble ( father and son where Both G so dunno which) Sutherland had 3 principals , Arthur . Nyal and Laurence , all worked together and from two different books i get two different stories.. one states Arther was the boss and founder while another states Nyal was the founder , i'll take a look tonight through the proof house and see who was taxed first , when in doubt the tax records will sort it .. that was merry olde england in the day ,, taxed to the max with bugger all representation unless you where someone.. but the tax records are excellent and give a lot of info this way , cheers

[TRAP55]

22shot, Are there notches in the muzzle of the bore?
Called a "screw barrel" boot or pocket pistol. With no provision for a ramrod, the barrel was unscrewed with a T handle wrench and loaded from the breech end.

[45Auto]

Screw barrel pocket pistols often came with a combination bullet mold which had a barrel wrench on the end of one of the handles. The wrench was either round with a notch to fit a projection on the outside of the barrel, or it was a tapered stud which fit grooves inside the muzzle. After the barrel was screwed off, powder and ball were placed in the breach and the barrel was screwed back on.

As to the maker: It's often difficult to say for sure if the name on a pistol is in fact the person who made it. Birmingham had a number of shops who made guns "for the trade." These arms were sold wholesale and the names of the retailers were added to them. A retail shop could order guns of any quality he wanted to pay for. Of course, if someone pirated your good name and used it to sell inferior goods, and you could find the scoundrel, he could be sued (and many were).

As to fixing your pistol: The pistol looks good and complete on the outside. Unless you are a rather skilled gunsmith I strongly suggest that you put it back together and sell it as is. It's far more difficult to restore an antique after someone else tried to fix it. And the price will go down accordingly.