Antique British SUTHERLAND Percussion Pistol Question

[Jim K]

FWIW, the proof is the London proof of that time. The crossed scepters are from the old Ketland mark; BPC is actually BCP, for Barrelmakers' Company Proved. (Company at that time didn't mean a stock company; it would be more like a guild or a modern association.)

Jim

[jack404]

nice seeing they did not become a entity until after the Gun Barrel Proof Act 1950
http://www.statutelaw.gov.uk/content...filesize=47160

try reading the previous legislation of Gun Barrel Proof Act 1868
http://www.statutelaw.gov.uk/content...tDocId=3475350

sorry Jim It would have been illegal to create that organisation under the previous legislation ,

here is the ketland mark

The inspector's mark is about .275" wide, about .400" tall,

FWIW ketland had the largest stamp known pre 1900 and it was objected to by many but seeing these where mainly trade guns , it continued ...

Ketland used the Birmingham proofing company stamps on all units besides trade guns which where marked with the stamp below

http://www.middlesexvillagetrading.com/MKF.SHTML has good info on Ketland and a great story on tracing old guns history

i doubt ketland had anything to do with sutherland

[Jim K]

Huh? "...fourteenth day of March sixteen hundred and thirty-seven..." doesn't sound like 1950 to me. Believe me, the Gunmakers Company existed long before the 20th century and so did that proof mark.

Jim

[jack404]

Jim the Ketland mark did exist before then yes but as there own mark but ketman used the birmingham proof house for its proofing in many cases the list of proofing houses are listed in the docs and that organisation did not exist , or not in any record i can find , but hey please if you have p better info please show me , i am a long way from either the UK or USA and our firearms info is government limited in many ways

i aint taking the mickey.. i really cant find a reference .. if you could send me a link to its existance and history it would fill in a lot og gaps for me

one thing to note Sutherland , would never have done business with ketland , very early on Ketland was charged with using other houses proof marks and so thir own brand became tainted , but they made weapons on contract for many many other houses , ( mostly european) also there was a scam running quite recently where false documents where published about ketland that where entirely false , a guy who was on a forum some years ago ( track of the wolf ? ) was selling ketland stamps thinking he was safe as he was USA based , he;ll get out of the UK prison system sometime after 2019 which is when he is elligable for parole and return to the USA , never ever fake a proof mark, they go hard , when found and will chase and will get international assistance to catch anyone doing so .. but as a side to that , the same guy published many so called histories of ketland , i had a copy here of one article , it was 100% wrong and sullied many folks off the ketland mark even further , i think poor old ketland has copped the rough end of the pineapple a few times by greedy folks , what few weapons i have seen from them have been bloody nice .. cheers

[Jim K]

With the understanding that, old as I am, I was not there at the time, this is the way I understand it. The Worshipful Company of Gunmakers (a guild) was established in 1637, in London. Its main job was to ensure quality within its own ranks and to do everything possible to keep foreign (and therefore inferior) guns out of circulation in England. They used the famous GP and V marks, the first for the proof mark and the second for the View mark, which meant that the barrel had been "viewed" (inspected) after proof and found to be undamaged. In 1670, they obtained a Royal charter (in the normal way - they bribed the King) and their proof jurisdiction and authority became official.

But their writ ran only in the London area. In about 1766, Ketland, a Birmingham maker, established a private proof house and used the crown and crossed scepters as his private mark. As you point out, some of his actions were not exactly ethical, but heck, business is business. In 1813, a law was passed establishing the Gun Barrelmaker's Company and requiring proof of all guns made in Britain (and Ireland). Since so many makers were in the Birmingham area, requiring them to bring their guns to London for proof would have imposed a difficulty (and raised cain); so a second proof house was established in Birmingham. They used the old Ketland mark, but with the letters BPC in the scepter cross. For the View mark, they used a similar mark with a V and without the BPC. Note that they used the same mark, not the same actual stamps, so their mark would not necessarily have been the same size as Ketland's.

I did make a mistake in saying that was a London mark; I guess I was thinking of the London on the gun, but the London shop may have been only a retail store or may have made some guns while others were made in Birmingham. In any case, that gun was made and proved in Birmingham, not London.

It was common for "London" makers to have the actual manufacturing done in Birmingham, while they established a London sales room for the greater prestige of a London address. (Sam Colt did the same thing in the U.S. Colt percussion revolvers are marked "New York", but were actually made in Hartford, Connecticut.)

So did some "real" manufacturer turn out box lock pistols for many of the "name" gun makers? There are enough similarities to make that plausible. Did the guns come from the factory unmarked, with the "famous maker" putting his own name on them? That, too, is possible, but I won't state it was done that way without seeing more evidence.

Jim

[jack404]

having a store in london and the factory in Birmingham or other places was common Mantons had sales offices in Calcutta Boston Melbourne and Johanesburg in the old days but the factory was in Bristol until they too moved to birmingham, thos are small mistakes and not a worry but i would like to see more on the olde proofing houses i have a couple of 16th century peices and they are stamped but for the life of me cannot find who the marks associate to other than the royal armoury which is another mark on them

one has a inscription "for Our Lord Bonny Prince Charles" if i can get a prrof match on this i'd forever be in your debt , i think its a repro about 40 years after the fact , but cannot say as i cannot match the makers mark , there where a lot of repro's sold to the variuos "loyalist" faction of the period so unless i can match it its a nice peice but thats all

Sutherland was a closed shop , they never "imported " or bought other makers work , Knox, Joyce, Marshalls and Corruthers too are the only ones i am aware of that have this history hence my being so firm on saying Sutherland was not a trade gun, they formed a CO-Op with the other listed makers to block the trade gun business ( and get a larger chunk of the royal amoury work) but the attempt failed , but they continued to push to not import weapons , with the following exceptions, Sutherland did share a contract to convert many flint locks to percussion caps and later to convert many muzzel loaders to breach loaders , however a young noble ( whom i forget) had a breech block blow up in his face and blind him Sutherland settled ( is was a crown case) and closed soon after , the youngest son was later head of proofing at the royal armoury but its a non issue relating to this pistol in the thread ,

many many trade gun ( without brands ) where made manton made some for esterly in New York these are hard to pick but again a few houses like sutherland resisted that and why sutherland Knox and a few others bring a premium on the Auctions

cheers eh

[Jim K]

Thanks for the further information on Sutherland. I have some books on proof and house marks so if you can provide good closeup pictures or good drawings of those you have, maybe I or someone else can help.

Before proving came under government control in England, the makers used their own marks, as they still do in the US, and as other guilds use their own "guildhall marks", or "hallmarks" on silverware and the like.

Jim

[jack404]

Jim if you could PDF the books i'd be more than happy to pay you for your time ,

cheers eh

[Jim K]

Sorry, I misled you. With the exception of Wirnsberger's Standard Directory of Proof Marks, the books I meant are not totally devoted to proof marks. The markings are scattered through some fairly large books as part of illustrations, and it wouldn't be practical to pdf that info. Besides, I am on a dial up line and it would take until the day after forever to do so. If you don't have the Standard Directory, though, it is usually available from Amazon, Ray Riling or other book dealers. I consider it the most valuable reference for proof and other markings in Europe.

Jim

[jack404]

I have that .. its states the proof on the sutherland was birmingham

[permafrost]

Originally Posted by jack404

Jim the Ketland mark did exist before then yes but as there own mark but ketman used the birmingham proof house for its proofing in many cases the list of proofing houses are listed in the docs and that organisation did not exist , or not in any record i can find , but hey please if you have p better info please show me , i am a long way from either the UK or USA and our firearms info is government limited in many ways

i aint taking the mickey.. i really cant find a reference .. if you could send me a link to its existance and history it would fill in a lot og gaps for me

one thing to note Sutherland , would never have done business with ketland , very early on Ketland was charged with using other houses proof marks and so thir own brand became tainted , but they made weapons on contract for many many other houses , ( mostly european) also there was a scam running quite recently where false documents where published about ketland that where entirely false , a guy who was on a forum some years ago ( track of the wolf ? ) was selling ketland stamps thinking he was safe as he was USA based , he;ll get out of the UK prison system sometime after 2019 which is when he is elligable for parole and return to the USA , never ever fake a proof mark, they go hard , when found and will chase and will get international assistance to catch anyone doing so .. but as a side to that , the same guy published many so called histories of ketland , i had a copy here of one article , it was 100% wrong and sullied many folks off the ketland mark even further , i think poor old ketland has copped the rough end of the pineapple a few times by greedy folks , what few weapons i have seen from them have been bloody nice .. cheers

Please forgive me for drifting off topic a little, but was following this thread with interest until a read" copped the rough end of the pineapple". I cracked up for some reason! i never heard that expression before and it sounded painful! Sorry again, please continue......

[Jim K]

I also meant to mention the series in the Gun Digest by Englehardt and taken over by Kennet. AFAIK, the articles have never been compiled into a book, but they are good.

Here is a list, I think complete:

Historial Notes on the Development of Proof. 1953.
Proof in the 19th Century; France, Belgium. 1955.
Proof in Modern Germany, 1956
Proof in Austria-Hungary. 1959.
Proof in Modern France. 1960.
Proof Marks in Great Britain. 1962.
Gun Proof in Czechoslovakia. 1968.
Gun Proof in Austria-Hungary and Austria. 1969.
Gun Proof in Spain. 1971.
Russian Proof Marks. 1974.
Gun Proof in England. 1977.
Gun Proof in Belgium. 1978.

Jim

[jack404]

from what i hear it is a bad experience , and why the tern is used , for those who do not know pineapple fronds when still on the plant are like spears , they soften some after picking .. try one in the market and think way harder pointy buts ( if they leave em on at your market) , then think soft tush and combine .. you'll get the idea

Australian slang for being roughly treated

Jim i'll hit the list today and see what of these i can find and grab

Thank You !!

[Jim K]

The American equivalent was a corncob, that is a dried ear of corn with the kernels stripped off leaving a rather rough area.

Another American saying was "tarred and feathered and ridden out of town on a rail." The victim of what we would now denounce as mob violence, but which at one time was considered justice, was stripped, slathered with hot pitch, covered with feathers, then set astride a fence rail (which had a sharp edge); the rail was picked up and carried, passenger and all, to a remote area and deposited.

Jim

[permafrost]

Originally Posted by Jim K

The American equivalent was a corncob, that is a dried ear of corn with the kernels stripped off leaving a rather rough area.

Another American saying was "tarred and feathered and ridden out of town on a rail." The victim of what we would now denounce as mob violence, but which at one time was considered justice, was stripped, slathered with hot pitch, covered with feathers, then set astride a fence rail (which had a sharp edge); the rail was picked up and carried, passenger and all, to a remote area and deposited.

Jim

Yeah, I was thinking the rough as a corncob came from early day use of the corncob in the outhouse. Was seeing a mental image of the Aussie's using the rough end of the pineapple for the same purpose. I guess that image is what struck my funny bone!

[Jim K]

I think the bit about using a corncob was a joke.

I don't know about today, but not too many years ago, the British Army toilet tissue was just that, like tissue paper used for wrapping, hard and shiny. And, so help me, it really did have the broad arrow printed on each sheet. I have no idea why; I couldn't imagine anyone wanting to steal that awful stuff - except me. I took a half dozen sheets to show folks how bad it was. (Now I guess they will send Scotland Yard after me!)

Jim

[BullShoot]

I don't think it was a joke. As I heard it, there were 2 buckets of water in the outhouse. One had clean water and water-soaked-and-softened corn cobs. The other held the used ones... that got recycled after a cleanup. A Sears Roebuck catalog was preferred but sometimes there just was no more until the next catalog arrived in the mail. AND, this is why all the writers on teotwawki survival techniques and survival preps all recommend you have lots and lots of toilet paper stored away.

BullShoot

[permafrost]

Originally Posted by BullShoot

I don't think it was a joke. As I heard it, there were 2 buckets of water in the outhouse. One had clean water and water-soaked-and-softened corn cobs. The other held the used ones... that got recycled after a cleanup. A Sears Roebuck catalog was preferred but sometimes there just was no more until the next catalog arrived in the mail. AND, this is why all the writers on teotwawki survival techniques and survival preps all recommend you have lots and lots of toilet paper stored away.

BullShoot

Ain't no way in HELL i'm gonna doubt someone who lives in the Ozarks! This man knows whereof he speaks.( I didn't know about the buckets of water, though)

[BullShoot]

Frosty, good one. Best laugh I've had all day.

BullShoot

[Jim K]

Way off topic, but when I was a kid lots of homes (in Western PA) still had those little houses. A very nasty Halloween trick was to pick the outhouse up and move it back four or five feet. I leave it to the reader's imagination to consider what happened to the first bleary eyed and sleepy person to make his way there in the morning.

Jim

[reinhard]

Originally Posted by Jim K

Way off topic, but when I was a kid lots of homes (in Western PA) still had those little houses. A very nasty Halloween trick was to pick the outhouse up and move it back four or five feet. I leave it to the reader's imagination to consider what happened to the first bleary eyed and sleepy person to make his way there in the morning.

Jim

I immagine that this person would fall in the s..t hole,and drowned

[Jim K]

The holes weren't that deep, but it would be nasty. I hate to say anyone would deserve that, but in one case I heard of, the perpetrators might have argued that the action was justified based on the victim's behavior.

Jim

[Warith]

I too am from MO and corn cobs where still in use when I was a kid.

They wernt as bad as that wax paper they used in england. My god that stuff was horrible it just smeared it around.

[Buffalochip]

Where I come from we used brown and white corn cobs. First, you'd use a brown corn cob. And then you'd use a white corn cob to see if you needed another brown one.

[Jim K]

Please, I apologize for getting this one off track, and it is going from bad to worse. I'm done here, and I suggest everyone else give this thread a rest.

Jim