Another Exploding Package and Congresswoman Shot

[Shooter45]

They are working hard. Look at the time of my post. The link was active as I had it pulled up. Maybe they have something in mind.

[cycloneman]

yea i had got the same thing

when you find something interesting you need to take a pic of it and then post it. I am learning. I have a digital camera next to the puter.

[Blue Tiger]

Loughner is definitely insane. Deliberation is not a test of sanity. But the legal definition is different. Also, anyone who commits such an act is necessarily insane. Several times the police had to come to his school because he was being disruptive and he was eventually expelled. This is conduct disorder, which is closely related to anti-social personality and psychopathy, which are more or less the same thing. He also showed disorganized thoughts or incoherence and may have been delusional, which could be symptoms of schizophrenia.

As for using the insanity defense, NGRI (Not Guilty by Reason of Insanity), it could be used but it would be difficult to prove that he didn't know what he was doing (the legal definition). Hinckley had narcissistic personality disorder and was found NGRI. There is GBMI (Guilty But Mentally Ill) but I don't think Arizona has such a provision.

Mental health services are generally inadeqaute or non-existent.
Harry Shearer, writing in the Huffington Post, Jan. 11, says we "have failed the mentally disturbed among us. And the bill continues to come due."

I have 2 diplomas and 4 certificates in psychology so I'm familiar with the subject.

[cycloneman]

Thanks Blue Tiger for that input. Hay welcom too.

While your here can you give me an answer to some of the questions I have posed before. Here is one thread.. I have to look for the other one. I am seriouse about this i would like to know what these disorders are called.

http://www.thefirearmsforum.com/show...light=disorder

here is the other thread

http://www.thefirearmsforum.com/show...light=disorder

[ofitg]

Blue Tiger, that's good info, please keep it coming. Be advised, though, that Loughner is being processed through the federal judicial system, so the Arizona statutes may not be relevant.

I keep wondering why Loughner's Facebook page is being overhauled. Perhaps the feds are just trying to avoid embarrassment by concealing the details of his past?

Or perhaps they are planning to use this new/fictitious FB page as evidence in court?

[RunningOnMT]

...and thanks for teaching me it's spelled D-E-L-U-S-I-O-N-A-L

[jack404]

http://yidwithlid.blogspot.com/2011/...r-was-not.htmlhttp://yidwithlid.blogspot.com/2011/...r-was-not.html

try that shooter the URL got cut short i noticed...

[22shot]

Thanks for the input on Phsychology; Blue Tiger.

It is a big part of the WHY.

[Shooter45]

Thats it Jack. Thanks. The link is still up so you had better look fast.

[ofitg]

From - http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/8946/fb001.jpg

By the way, I noticed that the Facebook photo of "Laughner" matched the photo of Loughner on his purged MySpace page..... so it is the same person.

[cycloneman]

Ok now i have see the vids. Sure i knew it he was a loner, probably never had a womans touch before, and he was a weirdo. Clearly the guns fault.

Now it doesnt really matter why he did what he did its about time he gets the attention he needs. After all he deserves a break, 22 years being a loner and all that. He deserves 3 square meals a day, cable tv, air condition, basket ball, and crafts for the rest of his life.

OH and dont ya think that the few friends he had need to be looked at now?
NA why do that.

[cycloneman]

I tell you right now I think that is his real fb page and someone changed that letter. O just cant have that kind of following in plane view you know.

[22shot]

The WHY

It is reported that athough Loughner was influenced by "Supremecist" and "Anti- Semetc" groups; the Dept. of Homeland Security (dept. of Ubber Alles) has not established a "link" between Loughner and any of these groups. ( Cable news "talk show").

Blue Tiger Post #56.

So that seems to cut off that direct association. It's not a crime to posess "Mein Kampf" or to have a anti-semetic views.

[Blue Tiger]

cycloneman,

For your 1st question, it isn't necessarily a disorder to believe in crap, but if it's the idea that if you commit an atrocity you go to heaven, as is held in Muslim fanaticism, than it is psychopathy. It might not be something they actually believe in themselves but they say it to encourage homicidal behaviour. In contrast to someone who murders in a psychotic state, the psychopath knows what he's doing and his intention is to do evil so he has no conscience and no feelings.

As to your nephew, Asperger's was suggested by some but he would also have to have social impairment, restricted interests, repetitive behaviour, and rigid adherence to routine. Most Asperger's patients also have ADHD, which occurs mostly in childhood and adolescence. This is where the ADD comes in. I don't know if ADD can occur separately from hyperactivity but in any case it looks like this is what your nephew has. All of the medications have side effects but Strattera is probably the worst and shouldn't be given. Ritalin and Pemoline are the others. Behaviour therapy is sometimes used in conjunction with drugs or instead of them. It is a rather serious problem that can continue into adulthood, and he should be examined and diagnosed by a professional.

[cycloneman]

Thanks Blue Tiger

Just what i was looking for. An explanation with those big words.

As far as my nephew goes, that kid is wasted. Since i posted that thread he has failed at his first simester at college. I guess it was just too hard to get up and go to class. I had to go to his apartment one day and found dope everywhere. So his father moved him back home and he is getting the adult supervision he needs.

[Blue Tiger]

A significant number of these cases go on to substance abuse in late adolescence and adluthood and have other problems. In 1 study 35% of those in treatment for cocaine use had ADHD as children. In a 16-year follow-up study 25% never completed high school. But was he ever seen by a clinical psychologist and how far does the problem go back?

[ofitg]

UPDATE - I didn't really want to, but I activated a Facebook account so I could get a closer look at those "Jared Laughner" pages. On his "Wall" page, it appears that he posted a message on Sunday.

I'm starting to think that somebody could have activated this "Jared Laughner" account on Saturday, after they heard about the shootings, using a phony name..... that would explain the mis-spelling.

Just a sick joke?

[RunningOnMT]

ofitg,

His last name is really Loughner. I know there has been some confusion about that. I'm sure that the Facebook account with the name Laughner is ficticious. I don't think he has access to any computers right now so he wouldn't be doing any updates to Facebook.

[RunningOnMT]

Originally Posted by Blue Tiger

cycloneman,

For your 1st question, it isn't necessarily a disorder to believe in crap, but if it's the idea that if you commit an atrocity you go to heaven, as is held in Muslim fanaticism, than it is psychopathy. It might not be something they actually believe in themselves but they say it to encourage homicidal behaviour. In contrast to someone who murders in a psychotic state, the psychopath knows what he's doing and his intention is to do evil so he has no conscience and no feelings.
As to your nephew, Asperger's was suggested by some but he would also have to have social impairment, restricted interests, repetitive behaviour, and rigid adherence to routine. Most Asperger's patients also have ADHD, which occurs mostly in childhood and adolescence. This is where the ADD comes in. I don't know if ADD can occur separately from hyperactivity but in any case it looks like this is what your nephew has. All of the medications have side effects but Strattera is probably the worst and shouldn't be given. Ritalin and Pemoline are the others. Behaviour therapy is sometimes used in conjunction with drugs or instead of them. It is a rather serious problem that can continue into adulthood, and he should be examined and diagnosed by a professional.

So is the psychopath legally insane? What is the difference between a psychopath and a sociopath?

...And thanks again. I appreciate your expertise on the forum.



mark

[Blue Tiger]

RunnningOnMT,

The simple answer is that the psychopath is considered legally sane, in other words, criminally responsible.

The M'Naghten Rule of 1843, called the "knowing right from wrong" rule is a ruling and precedent that says the person is legally insane if he does not know the nature and quality of the act or doesn't know it's wrong. M'Naghten was a Scottish woodturner who assassinated English civil servant Edward Drummond while having paranoid delusions.

There is also the Irresistible Impulse Rule of 1887 is a 2nd precedent whereby the person knows what he's doing is wrong but is compelled to do it.

The Durham Rule of 1952 introduced the product test wherby the person is not held criminally responsible if the act is the product of a mental disease or defect.

The American Law Institute Standard of 1962 introduced the substantial capacity test whereby the person, owing to a mental disease or defect, lacked substantial capacity either to appreciate its criminal character or to conform his or her behaviour to the law's requirements.

The Federal Insanity Defense Act of '84 abolished ALI and applied the notion of "unable to appreciate", which is similar to M'Naghten, and shifted the burden of proof to the defense. This shift was used in many states in the wake of the Hinckley acquittal.

Most states and DC use the M'Naghten Rule. Idaho, Montana, and Utah have abolished the insanity defense with the unfortunate consequence of a rise in Montana of dismissals due to the accused being "incompetent to stand trial."

Watching NBC Nightly News tonight I have learned that less than 1% of criminal cases use the insanity defense and it is successful only 20 % of the time and that Arizona does have the GRMI provision.

Sociopathy is really a synonym for psychopathy, which used to be called moral insanity or moral idiocy. The term ASPD was 1st used in the DSM in '80 and the difference between this and psychopathy is unclear.

[22shot]

Blue Tiger

Here's my "takeaway" from this event: a psychotic individual can be induced into action.

[RunningOnMT]

Yeah, he was probably induced by nancy pelosi and keith olbermann.

[ofitg]

Originally Posted by 22shot

Blue Tiger

Here's my "takeaway" from this event: a psychotic individual can be induced into action.

The "Laughner" Facebook pages have lost credibility with me, so I'm trying to re-formulate my opinion of the shooter, based upon his YouTube and MySpace rantings. I don't see any coherent political orientation there. He was just a confused little critter, angry at the world, snatching bits and pieces from the news/entertainment media, and weaving the pieces together to form some sort of personal "philosophy".
One fellow remarked that Loughner was a lot like the kids who shot up Columbine High School, just trying to inflict pain and gain some notoriety. Perhaps it was just a matter of time until he went over the edge and selected one target or another.

Can a psychotic individual be "induced" to commit some particular act? I don't know, perhaps Blue Tiger can shed some light on this. It appears that Loughner acted alone, without anybody else encouraging him or guiding him.

At least Loughner is still alive, and sooner or later he will probably tell somebody what motivated him. I don't expect his motive to make any sense.

[cycloneman]

I read something about him. I read that he would burst out in laughter for no reason and sometimes he would go into shaking fits. I knew a kid like that when i was growing up and we stayed far away from him.

His elevator does not go to the top floor.

[cycloneman]

Originally Posted by Blue Tiger

A significant number of these cases go on to substance abuse in late adolescence and adluthood and have other problems. In 1 study 35% of those in treatment for cocaine use had ADHD as children. In a 16-year follow-up study 25% never completed high school. But was he ever seen by a clinical psychologist and how far does the problem go back?

I dont know and honestly i am done with him. I found out yesterday he was busted with weed a couple of weeks ago and his mother is having drug problems too. The father is divorced from the mother and it's in his hands now.

Thanks for your input. At one time i was interested in helping him but now honestly i dont care anymore.