Can a black powder pistol be a self defense weapon? - The Firearms Forum

WilkieWashington · 07-02-2009, 06:17 AM

I know it isn't a glock... but a 44 caliber black powder revolver - what's the power? Can it drop a person, or is it just a toy?

I know the rifles can be used very well for hunting, but I'm talking about the pistols. Thanks,

Wilkie

Alpo · 07-02-2009, 08:20 AM

Hundreds (more probably thousands) of people were killed with 44 caliber black powder revolvers, since 1847. Even more were killed with 36 caliber black powder revolvers. And we can't forget the many that were killed with 31 caliber black powder revolvers.

No, they are not toys. A 44 round ball weighs 140 grains. A full charge (35 grains) of FF will push that about 750 fps out of a Remington 1858, or about 700 out of a Colt 1860.

That's close to a factory 38 Special. Will a 158 grain 38 special drop a person?

WilkieWashington · 07-02-2009, 09:04 AM

I wouldn't want to be on the end of that... Can it be used humanely for hunting, or is it just too small, and I should step up to the rifles? Thanks,

W

Alpo · 07-02-2009, 10:43 AM

As I said, it is about the power of a factory 38 special. If you can hit, accurately, on small game - rabbits, squirrels, foxes, quail, turtles, turkeys - things of that size, sure, it would be humane for hunting. Deer size game? If you have a Walker, or a Ruger Old Army, using conical bullets, yes, I think so. Out to maybe 50 yards. If you have a Remington, or a Colt Army, then I don't think so. It will kill deer - of that I have no doubt. Will it kill deer cleanly and humanely? Not consistently.

WilkieWashington · 07-02-2009, 11:08 AM

Thanks - I'll get a rifle, then. If I'm going to kill something, I want it to be a bolt of lightning - no point, just close the book. Game over.

W

Larry in Michigan · 07-02-2009, 04:59 PM

I have a Ruger Old Army and with a load of 45 grains of 777 it delivers
more than enough power to kill a deer cleanly. BUT...shot placement
is the primary consideration in deer hunting, and you will do a much better
job with a rifle than you will with a pistol. I thought I had bridged that
gap when I put a scope on an S&W .44 Magnum. But alas, when the
moment of truth came and two bucks walked by about 40 yards out, looking back over their shoulders at distant hunters, I couldn't keep either slowly moving animal in the scope and didn't get a shot. I'm sure I could have killed either animal with almost any kind of rifle, scoped or not. I have never again depended upon a pistol for deer hunting again. I may take the Ruger out
during muzzle-loading season here in Michigan, though, but I will have
to have a clear shot at reasonable range before I try a kill.

Larry in Michigan

Southern Boy · 07-03-2009, 10:25 AM

I regularly take wild hogs with my Ruger old army pistols. They are out of the way on my side as I ramble through the heavy brush, and will roll a 300+ lb. hog with ease. Of coarse this is close range hunting, and if I were in the open, would use a rifle for long range shooting. I have never wounded and lost game with B.P. sooo They of coarse will do a nice job of filling the freezer.

AL MOUNT · 07-03-2009, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WilkieWashington

Can it drop a person, or is it just a toy?

Ask Wild Bill Hickock or Jesse James.... ...

Trouble 45-70 · 07-03-2009, 04:50 PM

If freshly loaded it should do any reasonable job you want it to do. If I had my druthers though, I would prefer a large bore cartrige gun for anything other than paper or cans. I know several people who keep one or more by the night table. Me, I keep a .45 acp but if fired in a dark bedroom, it wont shoot a foot and a half of flame and set an assailents shirt on fire Like my Army model Colt and Rem. .44s would. Wonder how many times that has happened. Gangbanger with a polyester shirt on fire cralling down the hallway. Can anyone do a cartoon of that?

johnlives4christ · 07-03-2009, 05:59 PM

wouldnt want to burn your house down because of it though trouble 45 70

Maximilian II · 07-04-2009, 01:31 AM

Black powder handguns are not, as you stated, state of the art. They are, however, veteran killers. They've "done the job" for more years than the current generation has, and are definitely capable of doing it again.
I'd still reccomend the Glock. Or Colt, S&W, Ruger, Springfield, Beretta, Taurus, Webley, FEG, Walther, Mauser, etc., etc., pretty much ANY 20'th or 21'st century handgun is more efficient at "doing the job" than a black powder revolver. Just a matter of technology. Humans are good at killing each other. Just give us some time and we'll get better at it.

WilkieWashington · 07-04-2009, 05:44 AM

Thanks all, I appreciate it!

W

tiberius10721 · 07-04-2009, 04:07 PM

I shoot my Uberti 1858 remington 44 about every two weeks.In my opinion if a bad guy was shot with this pistol he would be screwed!These .454 lead round balls flatten out niceley.I keep my black power pistol loaded at all times and I would feel confident using this gun for self defense.Great thing about bp guns is powder ,lead and percussion caps are still easy to find unlike modern day ammunition and reloading supplies.

Pustic · 07-04-2009, 07:26 PM

Don't forget the 1847 Colt Walker was the most powerful handgun until the .357 Mag. came out in the early 1930's.
You don't really want to keep it loaded all the time with loose powder and ball, so what you need is an R&D conversion cylinder to go from .44 RB to .45 LC. It's a lot easier to load cartridges than loose powder and ball. Then it makes a very nice self defense weapon. That's what I use, an 1858 Remington with an R&D Cylinder. http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...tNumber=292272

tiberius10721 · 07-05-2009, 12:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pustic

Don't forget the 1847 Colt Walker was the most powerful handgun until the .357 Mag. came out in the early 1930's.
You don't really want to keep it loaded all the time with loose powder and ball, so what you need is an R&D conversion cylinder to go from .44 RB to .45 LC. It's a lot easier to load cartridges than loose powder and ball. Then it makes a very nice self defense weapon. That's what I use, an 1858 Remington with an R&D Cylinder. http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...tNumber=292272

why not keep it loaded with powder and ball all the time? I leave mine loaded for months at a time and have never had a problem.Now I must admit Im talking about leaving my pistol loaded in my nightstand of my house where the temp is always cool and my bp pistol is not moved around much unless I take it out shooting.

vern hodgson · 07-06-2009, 06:28 PM

Hang a nice thick costco steak from a tree branch and see if you can put a hole in it!! That will tell you a lot.

armedandsafe · 07-06-2009, 08:20 PM

Many people are leery of the fact that blackpowder is hygroscopic (soaks up moisture from the air.) If the ball leaves a nice ring of lead when you ram it, the caps are fitted tightly and sealed with candle wax, you can leave the thing loaded for a looooong time without problem. No air, no moisture to soak up.

Pops

WilkieWashington · 07-07-2009, 04:31 AM

Do the pyrodex pellets soak up moisture from the air?

W

TranterUK · 07-07-2009, 04:44 AM

My 2c? I dont think the question is whether they can do the job, they have in the past. The issue for me would be inability to reload, easily, and the reliability. Even pinched percussion caps can fall off, especially helped by recoil and perhaps brushing against clothing.

An interesting foot note is that in some countries with strict gun laws, percussion weapons are not controlled. Thus a black powder gun is a viable weapon of self defence. This is the case for example in France. Though not here, where Black Powder guns are controlled as strictly as centre fire. Insane.

WilkieWashington · 07-07-2009, 06:56 AM

What is that, a "2c"? I'm new to blackpowder, and don't know what that term means. Thanks,

W

Larry in Michigan · 07-08-2009, 01:25 PM

I think he means "my two cents", not a term of art.

tiberius10721 · 07-08-2009, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TranterUK

My 2c? I dont think the question is whether they can do the job, they have in the past. The issue for me would be inability to reload, easily, and the reliability. Even pinched percussion caps can fall off, especially helped by recoil and perhaps brushing against clothing.

An interesting foot note is that in some countries with strict gun laws, percussion weapons are not controlled. Thus a black powder gun is a viable weapon of self defence. This is the case for example in France. Though not here, where Black Powder guns are controlled as strictly as centre fire. Insane.

If you own the 1858 remington model cylinders can be swapped out almost as fast as a speed loader.If you use #10 percussion caps you dont have to pinch them and dont fall off. I love the fact you can have a bp pistol mailed directly to your house.

Alpo · 07-09-2009, 04:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by armedandsafe

Many people are leery of the fact that blackpowder is hygroscopic (soaks up moisture from the air.) If the ball leaves a nice ring of lead when you ram it, the caps are fitted tightly and sealed with candle wax, you can leave the thing loaded for a looooong time without problem. No air, no moisture to soak up.

Pops

You stick a candle flame down next to the nipples of chambers loaded with black powder?

Alpo · 07-09-2009, 04:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TranterUK

My 2c? I dont think the question is whether they can do the job, they have in the past. The issue for me would be inability to reload, easily, and the reliability. Even pinched percussion caps can fall off, especially helped by recoil and perhaps brushing against clothing.

An interesting foot note is that in some countries with strict gun laws, percussion weapons are not controlled. Thus a black powder gun is a viable weapon of self defence. This is the case for example in France. Though not here, where Black Powder guns are controlled as strictly as centre fire. Insane.

That pig flu must be gettin' to you. You wrote in English, 'steada 'Merican, again.

TranterUK · 07-09-2009, 06:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tiberius10721

If you own the 1858 remington model cylinders can be swapped out almost as fast as a speed loader.If you use #10 percussion caps you dont have to pinch them and dont fall off. I love the fact you can have a bp pistol mailed directly to your house.

I have used 1858 Remingtons (Originals), and agree the cylinders can be changed very quickly. Out of all the BP revolvers it is perhaps the most suitable.

Alpo, pig flu almost gone. Hope the leg grows back.....

07-02-2009, 08:20 AM	#2
Alpo Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: NW Florida Posts: 8,658	Re: Can a black powder pistol be a self defense weapon? Hundreds (more probably thousands) of people were killed with 44 caliber black powder revolvers, since 1847. Even more were killed with 36 caliber black powder revolvers. And we can't forget the many that were killed with 31 caliber black powder revolvers. No, they are not toys. A 44 round ball weighs 140 grains. A full charge (35 grains) of FF will push that about 750 fps out of a Remington 1858, or about 700 out of a Colt 1860. That's close to a factory 38 Special. Will a 158 grain 38 special drop a person? __________________ Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy, and taste good with catsup - George of Lod, Year of Our Lord 297 I always take precautions. Beware the Evil Bullet Fairies.

07-02-2009, 09:04 AM	#3
WilkieWashington Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 29	Re: Can a black powder pistol be a self defense weapon? I wouldn't want to be on the end of that... Can it be used humanely for hunting, or is it just too small, and I should step up to the rifles? Thanks, W

07-02-2009, 10:43 AM	#4
Alpo Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: NW Florida Posts: 8,658	Re: Can a black powder pistol be a self defense weapon? As I said, it is about the power of a factory 38 special. If you can hit, accurately, on small game - rabbits, squirrels, foxes, quail, turtles, turkeys - things of that size, sure, it would be humane for hunting. Deer size game? If you have a Walker, or a Ruger Old Army, using conical bullets, yes, I think so. Out to maybe 50 yards. If you have a Remington, or a Colt Army, then I don't think so. It will kill deer - of that I have no doubt. Will it kill deer cleanly and humanely? Not consistently. __________________ Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy, and taste good with catsup - George of Lod, Year of Our Lord 297 I always take precautions. Beware the Evil Bullet Fairies.

07-02-2009, 11:08 AM	#5
WilkieWashington Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 29	Re: Can a black powder pistol be a self defense weapon? Thanks - I'll get a rifle, then. If I'm going to kill something, I want it to be a bolt of lightning - no point, just close the book. Game over. W

07-02-2009, 04:59 PM	#6
Larry in Michigan Member Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 20	Re: Can a black powder pistol be a self defense weapon? I have a Ruger Old Army and with a load of 45 grains of 777 it delivers more than enough power to kill a deer cleanly. BUT...shot placement is the primary consideration in deer hunting, and you will do a much better job with a rifle than you will with a pistol. I thought I had bridged that gap when I put a scope on an S&W .44 Magnum. But alas, when the moment of truth came and two bucks walked by about 40 yards out, looking back over their shoulders at distant hunters, I couldn't keep either slowly moving animal in the scope and didn't get a shot. I'm sure I could have killed either animal with almost any kind of rifle, scoped or not. I have never again depended upon a pistol for deer hunting again. I may take the Ruger out during muzzle-loading season here in Michigan, though, but I will have to have a clear shot at reasonable range before I try a kill. Larry in Michigan

07-02-2009, 06:17 AM	#1
WilkieWashington Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 29	Can a black powder pistol be a self defense weapon? I know it isn't a glock... but a 44 caliber black powder revolver - what's the power? Can it drop a person, or is it just a toy? I know the rifles can be used very well for hunting, but I'm talking about the pistols. Thanks, Wilkie -->

07-03-2009, 10:25 AM	#7
Southern Boy V.I.P. Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 110	Re: Can a black powder pistol be a self defense weapon? I regularly take wild hogs with my Ruger old army pistols. They are out of the way on my side as I ramble through the heavy brush, and will roll a 300+ lb. hog with ease. Of coarse this is close range hunting, and if I were in the open, would use a rifle for long range shooting. I have never wounded and lost game with B.P. sooo They of coarse will do a nice job of filling the freezer. __________________ "The 2nd Amendment is my "concealed carry permit"" Ted Nugent

07-03-2009, 04:50 PM	#9
Trouble 45-70 Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: NE Ar. W. of Black River Contributor Posts: 2,703	Re: Can a black powder pistol be a self defense weapon? If freshly loaded it should do any reasonable job you want it to do. If I had my druthers though, I would prefer a large bore cartrige gun for anything other than paper or cans. I know several people who keep one or more by the night table. Me, I keep a .45 acp but if fired in a dark bedroom, it wont shoot a foot and a half of flame and set an assailents shirt on fire Like my Army model Colt and Rem. .44s would. Wonder how many times that has happened. Gangbanger with a polyester shirt on fire cralling down the hallway. Can anyone do a cartoon of that? Last edited by Trouble 45-70; 07-03-2009 at 04:52 PM.. Reason: afterthought

07-03-2009, 05:59 PM	#10
johnlives4christ Former Guest Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Kentucky Posts: 3,828	Re: Can a black powder pistol be a self defense weapon? wouldnt want to burn your house down because of it though trouble 45 70

07-04-2009, 01:31 AM	#11
Maximilian II Advanced Senior Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Northwest GA Posts: 1,381	Re: Can a black powder pistol be a self defense weapon? Black powder handguns are not, as you stated, state of the art. They are, however, veteran killers. They've "done the job" for more years than the current generation has, and are definitely capable of doing it again. I'd still reccomend the Glock. Or Colt, S&W, Ruger, Springfield, Beretta, Taurus, Webley, FEG, Walther, Mauser, etc., etc., pretty much ANY 20'th or 21'st century handgun is more efficient at "doing the job" than a black powder revolver. Just a matter of technology. Humans are good at killing each other. Just give us some time and we'll get better at it. __________________ Karma is just justice, without the satisfaction. And I don't believe in justice. -Joe Sarno, bagman.

07-04-2009, 05:44 AM	#12
WilkieWashington Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 29	Re: Can a black powder pistol be a self defense weapon? Thanks all, I appreciate it! W

07-04-2009, 04:07 PM	#13
tiberius10721 Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: turlock ca Posts: 28	Re: Can a black powder pistol be a self defense weapon? I shoot my Uberti 1858 remington 44 about every two weeks.In my opinion if a bad guy was shot with this pistol he would be screwed!These .454 lead round balls flatten out niceley.I keep my black power pistol loaded at all times and I would feel confident using this gun for self defense.Great thing about bp guns is powder ,lead and percussion caps are still easy to find unlike modern day ammunition and reloading supplies.

07-04-2009, 07:26 PM	#14
Pustic V.I.P. Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Western Kentucky Posts: 149	Re: Can a black powder pistol be a self defense weapon? Don't forget the 1847 Colt Walker was the most powerful handgun until the .357 Mag. came out in the early 1930's. You don't really want to keep it loaded all the time with loose powder and ball, so what you need is an R&D conversion cylinder to go from .44 RB to .45 LC. It's a lot easier to load cartridges than loose powder and ball. Then it makes a very nice self defense weapon. That's what I use, an 1858 Remington with an R&D Cylinder. http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...tNumber=292272 Last edited by Pustic; 07-04-2009 at 07:52 PM..

07-06-2009, 06:28 PM	#16
vern hodgson Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 7	Re: Can a black powder pistol be a self defense weapon? Hang a nice thick costco steak from a tree branch and see if you can put a hole in it!! That will tell you a lot.

07-06-2009, 08:20 PM	#17
armedandsafe Former Guest Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Moses Lake, WA Posts: 10,344	Re: Can a black powder pistol be a self defense weapon? Many people are leery of the fact that blackpowder is hygroscopic (soaks up moisture from the air.) If the ball leaves a nice ring of lead when you ram it, the caps are fitted tightly and sealed with candle wax, you can leave the thing loaded for a looooong time without problem. No air, no moisture to soak up. Pops Last edited by armedandsafe; 07-06-2009 at 08:22 PM..

07-07-2009, 04:31 AM	#18
WilkieWashington Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 29	Re: Can a black powder pistol be a self defense weapon? Do the pyrodex pellets soak up moisture from the air? W

07-07-2009, 04:44 AM	#19
TranterUK Advanced Senior Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Cambridge UK Posts: 5,103	Re: Can a black powder pistol be a self defense weapon? My 2c? I dont think the question is whether they can do the job, they have in the past. The issue for me would be inability to reload, easily, and the reliability. Even pinched percussion caps can fall off, especially helped by recoil and perhaps brushing against clothing. An interesting foot note is that in some countries with strict gun laws, percussion weapons are not controlled. Thus a black powder gun is a viable weapon of self defence. This is the case for example in France. Though not here, where Black Powder guns are controlled as strictly as centre fire. Insane. __________________ DVC - Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas - Accuracy, Power, Speed. The light at the end of the recession tunnel IS a train coming the other way!

07-07-2009, 06:56 AM	#20
WilkieWashington Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 29	Re: Can a black powder pistol be a self defense weapon? What is that, a "2c"? I'm new to blackpowder, and don't know what that term means. Thanks, W

07-08-2009, 01:25 PM	#21
Larry in Michigan Member Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 20	Re: Can a black powder pistol be a self defense weapon? I think he means "my two cents", not a term of art.