The Muslim Brotherhood and the Egyptian Crisis

[Marlin T]

Home » Jerusalem Issue Briefs » The Muslim Brotherhood and the Egyptian Crisis Published February 2011
Vol. 10, No. 26 2 February 2011

The Muslim Brotherhood and the Egyptian Crisis

Dore Gold

• Will the Obama administration's policy toward Egypt be based on a perception that the rise of the Muslim Brotherhood would be extremely dangerous? Or have they taken the position - voiced in parts of the U.S. foreign policy establishment - that the Brotherhood has become moderate and can be talked to? Initial administration reactions indicate that it does not rule out Muslim Brotherhood participation in a future Egyptian coalition government.
• Since January 28, the Muslim Brotherhood's involvement has become more prominent, with its support of Mohamed ElBaradei to lead the opposition forces against the government. In the streets of Cairo, Muslim Brotherhood demonstrators disdainfully call people like ElBaradei "donkeys of the revolution" (hamir al-thawra) - to be used and thenpushed away - a scenario that sees the Muslim Brotherhoodexploit ElBaradei in order to hijack the Egyptian revolution at a later stage.
• There has been a great deal of confusion about the Muslim Brotherhood.In the years after it was founded in 1928, it developed a "secret apparatus" that engaged in political terrorism against Egyptian Copts as well as government officials. In December 1948, the Muslim Brotherhood assassinated Egyptian Prime Minister Mahmoud al-Nuqrashi Pasha. It also sought to kill Egyptian leader Abdul Nasser in October 1954.
• Former Brotherhood Supreme Guide Muhammad Akef declared in 2004 his "complete faith that Islam will invade Europe and America." In 2001, the Muslim Brotherhood's publication in London, Risalat al-Ikhwan, featured at the top of its cover page the slogan: "Our Mission: World Domination." This header was changed after 9/11.
• The current Supreme Guide, Muhammad Badi', gave a sermon in September 2010 stating that "the improvement and change that the [Muslim] nation seeks can only be attained through jihad and sacrifice and by raising a jihadi generation that pursues death, just as the enemies pursue life."

Initially, it was widely observed that the Muslim Brotherhood has been very low-key during the current crisis in Egypt. Most analysts admitted that it is the best organized and largest opposition group in Egypt, but they played down its role. Yet since January 28, the Muslim Brotherhood's involvement has become more prominent. One tangible example is the support the Brotherhood has given to Mohamed ElBaradei to lead the opposition forces against the government.

In the streets of Cairo, Muslim Brotherhood demonstrators disdainfully call people like ElBaradei "donkeys of the revolution" (hamir al-thawra), to be used and then pushed away.1 Thus, there is a scenario that sees the Muslim Brotherhood exploit a figure like ElBaradei in order to hijack the Egyptian revolution at a later stage.

What is the Muslim Brotherhood? It is known as Ikhwan al-Muslimun in Arabic, or just Ikhwan, established in 1928 by an Egyptian schoolteacher, Hassan al-Banna. Outwardly, it was a social and religious organization, but over the years it developed a "secret apparatus" that engaged in military training of its cadres and political terrorism against Egyptian Copts as well as government officials. This dualism continued years later. In December 1948, the Muslim Brotherhood assassinated Egyptian Prime Minister Mahmoud al-Nuqrashi Pasha. It also sought to kill Egyptian leader Abdul Nasser in October 1954.

The Muslim Brotherhood also had an expansionist agenda right from the start, and called for the re-establishment of the Islamic Empire. In the late 1930s, its newspaper called for retaking "former Islamic colonies" in Andalus (Spain), southern Italy, and the Balkans.2 This theme was maintained in recent years by its former Supreme Guide, Muhammad Akef, who in 2004 declared his "complete faith that Islam will invade Europe and America," with the caveat that Westerners will join Islam by conviction.3 Others have also made this point. According to Sheikh Yousef Qaradawi, widely regarded as the spiritual leader of the Muslim Brotherhood:

Constantinople was conquered in 1453 by a 23-year-old Ottoman named Muhammad ibn Murad, whom we call Muhammad the Conqueror. Now what remains is to conquer Rome. That is what we wish for, and that is what we believe in. After having been expelled twice, Islam will be victorious and reconquer Europe....I am certain that this time, victory will be won not by the sword but by preaching.4

Over the years, the Muslim Brotherhood opened branches in a number of Arab countries and even has front organizations in the UK, France, and the U.S. But it has not disavowed its original commitment to Islamic militancy and its global ambitions. For example, the Muslim Brotherhood's publication in London, Risalat al-Ikhwan, has maintained a clearly jihadist orientation; in 2001 it featured at the top of its cover page the slogan: "Our Mission: World Domination" (siyadat al-dunya). This header was changed after 9/11, but the publication still carries the Muslim Brotherhood's motto which includes: "Jihad is our path; martyrdom is our aspiration."5

The current Supreme Guide of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, Muhammad Badi', gave a sermon in September 2010 stating that Muslims today "need to understand that the improvement and change that the [Muslim] nation seeks can only be attained through jihad and sacrifice and by raising a jihadi generation that pursues death, just as the enemies pursue life."6 In short, the Muslim Brotherhood remains committed to supporting militant activities in order to advance its political aims. From looking at the biographies of its most prominent graduates, one can immediately understand the organization's long-term commitment to jihadism:

1. Abdullah Azzam (of the Jordanian Muslim Brotherhood) and Muhammad Qutb (of the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood) taught at King Abdul Aziz University in Jidda, Saudi Arabia, where they had a student named Osama bin Laden. Azzam went off to Pakistan with his student, bin Laden, to help the mujahidin fight the Soviets in Afghanistan.

2. Ayman al-Zawahiri (bin Laden's deputy) grew up in the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood.

3. Khalid Sheikh Muhammad (the al-Qaeda mastermind of the 9/11 attacks) came out of the Kuwaiti Muslim Brotherhood.

Given this background, the Muslim Brotherhood has been widely regarded in the Arab world as the incubator of the jihadist ideology. A former Kuwaiti Minister of Education, Dr. Ahmad Al-Rab'i, argued in Al-Sharq al-Awsat on July 25, 2005, that the founders of most modern terrorist groups in the Middle East emerged from "the mantle" of the Muslim Brotherhood.

Many columnists in the Middle East have warned in recent years about the Brotherhood's hostile intentions. Tariq Hasan, a columnist for the Egyptian government daily Al-Ahram, alerted his readers on June 23, 2007, that the Muslim Brotherhood was preparing a violent takeover in Egypt, using its "masked militias" in order to replicate the Hamas seizure of power in the Gaza Strip. And columnist Hussein Shobokshi, writing in the Saudi-owned Al-Sharq al-Awsat on October 23, 2007, said that "to this day" the Muslim Brotherhood "has brought nothing but fanaticism, divisions, and extremism, and in some cases bloodshed and killings." Thus, both Arab regimes and leading opinion-makers in Arab states still have serious reservations about the claim of a new moderation in the Muslim Brotherhood.7

Ironically, in the last five years, prominent voices in the West have considered opening a political dialogue with the Muslim Brotherhood. For example, Dr. Robert S. Leiken and Steven Brooke published an article in the March-April 2007 issue of Foreign Affairs called "The Moderate Muslim Brotherhood" in which they advised the Bush administration to enter into a strategic alliance with the organization, which they referred to as "moderate," calling it a "notable opportunity" to use the Brotherhood to promote American interests. James Traub echoed many of their arguments in the New York Times Magazine on April 29, 2007, in which he claimed that "the Muslim Brotherhood, for all its rhetorical support of Hamas, could well be precisely the kind of moderate Islamic body that the administration says it seeks." In addition, a committee in the British House of Commons also advocated the UK opening a dialogue with the Muslim Brotherhood, as well.

At the same time, some U.S. officials and dignitaries seemed to have softened their approach to the Muslim Brotherhood. In 2005, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice pressed President Mubarak to open up participation in the Egyptian parliamentary elections, resulting in a major increase of elected Muslim Brotherhood members from 15 to 88. Subsequently, Mubarak became more reluctant to take U.S. advice.

Visiting U.S. House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer met twice in 2007 with the head of the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood's parliamentary bloc, Mohammed Saad el-Katatni, according to Brotherhood spokesman Hamdi Hassan.

The critical question is whether the Obama administration's policy toward Egypt will be based on a perception that the rise of the Muslim Brotherhood would be extremely dangerous. Or have they taken the position - voiced in parts of the U.S. foreign policy establishment - that the Muslim Brotherhood has become moderate and can be talked to? The initial reactions of the Obama administration indicate that it does not rule out Muslim Brotherhood participation in a future Egyptian coalition government.8 Unfortunately, there is a dangerous misconception about the Muslim Brotherhood in parts of the foreign policy community in the West that could affect calculations in Washington and London in the weeks ahead.

* * *

Notes

1. Yoni Ben Menahem, Israel Radio - Reshet Bet, February 1, 2011.
2. Brynjar Lia, The Society of the Muslim Brothers in Egypt - The Rise of an Islamic Mass Movement 1928-1942 (Reading, UK: Ithaca Press, 1998) p. 80.
3. Lorenzo Vidino, The New Muslim Brotherhood in the West (New York: Columbia University Press, 2010), p. 92.
4. Lt. Col. (res.) Jonathan Dahoah-Halevi, "The Muslim Brotherhood: A Moderate Islamic Alternative to al-Qaeda or a Partner in Global Jihad?" Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs, Jerusalem Viewpoints, No. 558, 1 November 2007.
5. Ibid.
6. "Muslim Brotherhood Supreme Guide: ‘The U.S. Is Now Experiencing the Beginning of Its End'; Improvement and Change in the Muslim World ‘Can Only Be Attained Through Jihad and Sacrifice,'" MEMRI (Middle East Media Research Institute), Special Dispatch No. 3274, October 6, 2010;
http://www.memri.org/report/en/print4650.htm.
7. Halevi, "The Muslim Brotherhood."
8. Paul Richter and Peter Nicholas, "U.S. Open to a Role for Islamists in New Egypt Government: But the Muslim Brotherhood Must Renounce Violence and Support Democracy, the White House Says," Los Angeles Times, Latimes.com, January 31, 2011; http://www.latimes.com/news/politics...2958266.story/.

* * *

Ambassador Dore Gold, President of the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs, was the eleventh Permanent Representative of Israel to the United Nations (1997-1999). Dr. Gold served as foreign policy advisor to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu during his first government and has advised Israeli governments since that time on U.S.-Israel relations. He is the author of the best-selling books: The Fight for Jerusalem: Radical Islam, the West, and the Future of the Holy City (Regnery, 2007), and The Rise of Nuclear Iran: How Tehran Defies the West (Regnery, 2009).

[jack404]

So

here we go again .

more info on our friends the Muslim Brotherhood

Via influences inside the various Afghan/Pakistani Al Queda groups and factions , The MB ( who parented the early al queda) have been very good at raising funds

Drugs from al queda dope deals ( MB are the distrution via groups they influence in Kazakstan Russia Australia US and UK )
funds from founded groups such as the US Muslim students association (MSA and yeah in almost every colledge and Uni in the USA )
CAIR
the various sects and Mosques in the USA incl. the former imam of the park 51 project
weapons sales to variuous groups and aiding others in setting up illicit gun factories and bomb factories globally ( inc Australia )

nasty nasty folks with tenticles every where

a sub linked student Group in the USA even pays lobbyists in the US to train your politicians on islam , ( Taqiyya via Lobbyists and pro muslim "indoctrination" via political donations)

and the MB even gets money from global outfits like the Un and those who control the UN

Soros group funds the UAF in the UK to the tune of $5,000,000 USD a year in the UK currently , while the EDL , get nothing but supporters donations maybe $50,000 a year

It's highly likely these funds are from Saudi in the majority and the Soros group is playing middle man for it , they have been a facilitator to too many simialr actions we know of in the past and its a pattern they both are happy with ..

thats the MB from my side

except for one thing

the MB has also a very military componant , not big .

but imagine suddenly 500 well trained and suicidal nutters hit the streets in the west

they have this capability and have been honing it to a knifes edge the past 2 years ,

with the change in egypt and lots military power as a sheild , many analyst's are thinking they let em out to play soon

they have also been very focused on recruiting and training con verts from various nations
2-300 from the US alone is the figures about so they blend in , they are locals , but been to Pakistan, Somalia or Yemen for training .. thats also been the past couple years

the last group busted here where going to attack a army base and a kindergarden/preschool/infants school complex ..

thats the MB

[ofitg]

Ironically, in the last five years, prominent voices in the West have considered opening a political dialogue with the Muslim Brotherhood. For example, Dr. Robert S. Leiken and Steven Brooke published an article in the March-April 2007 issue of Foreign Affairs called "The Moderate Muslim Brotherhood" in which they advised the Bush administration to enter into a strategic alliance with the organization, which they referred to as "moderate," calling it a "notable opportunity" to use the Brotherhood to promote American interests.

Foreign Affairs is the periodical published by the CFR.

At the same time, some U.S. officials and dignitaries seemed to have softened their approach to the Muslim Brotherhood. In 2005, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice pressed President Mubarak to open up participation in the Egyptian parliamentary elections, resulting in a major increase of elected Muslim Brotherhood members from 15 to 88. Subsequently, Mubarak became more reluctant to take U.S. advice.

The CFR has controlled our State Dept. for a long time.

I hate to say it, but considering the Telegraph.co.uk article about our government's collaboration with the Egyptian rebels, I'm starting to believe that the Globalists' objective is to strengthen/empower the Jihadists.

It reminds me of how our government spent 40 years "fighting the Cold War" with one hand, while propping up the Soviet Union with the other hand. Something stinks.

[redwing carson]

The radical left wing under Jimmy Carter played games with the same problem in Iran. Obama's pro left pro moslem politics will trap America
into another Iran. The left will allow Islam to take Egypt and move closer
to the end of Jewish state.

RC

[jack404]

thinking out load here ,

remembering a conversation i once had , one of your folks ( US )
the basic of it where ....

MB are Sunni sect technically, Iran , how ever is Shi'a in a very Big way ..

and they hate each other with a vengence and both have totally wiped out some of the smaller sub sects of islam ( theres 73 or 72 left , we dunno yet about a part of Sudan ..)

the question was asked of me , where would you rather see them fight ? after they take over the joint ( meaning the free world ) in down town USA or at home before it gets that bad ?

ever wonder why some despot's are backed ? because they hold down even worse things often , often ruthlessly yes , but effective ,

the man stated he did not like carter so much but the blokes thinking it all up and selling it to him need a lot of respect ,

wheels within wheels some times folks , but looks like it all was just a delaying tactic..

If egypt goes MB , Israel is in for a "interesting time" , i'm watching Libya myself , even gadaffi has been finding "faith" the past few years , they combine , the thing will go conventional in a BIG way . its just time and maybe some religious coup to organise it all ..

[Marlin T]

Thinking out loud;

Hummm; caliphate anybody?

I bet those folks in Israel are really nervous right now. Phew, prayers for their well being.

[carver]

Caliphate! Ya beat me to it. Jack, you are correct The Muslim Brotherhood does get a lot of money form the U.S., thru groups like Code Pink, and several others, who back The Muslim Brotherhood. Looks more, and more like Israel should keep their heads up! I would bet you my last dollar that Egypt goes the route of Iran, but I don't see an end to the Israeli state, just lots of bloodshed!

[RunningOnMT]

I've said it before, I'll say it again: Islam is totally incompatible with western democracy, capitalism, our culture, and our system of justice. The sooner we quit trying to figure out the "good" Muslims from the "bad", the better off we'll be.

Islam's number one goal is the elimination or subjugation of all non-Muslims. Discussions which fail to recognize that fact first and foremost are a welcome distraction for the MB. Inevitably it buys them more time to infiltrate and coerce. To be blunt, they are nothing but a bunch of conniving dogs that bring nothing to western civilization that is good.

[SpazFreak1911]

Originally Posted by RunningOnMT

I've said it before, I'll say it again: Islam is totally incompatible with western democracy, capitalism, our culture, and our system of justice. The sooner we quit trying to figure out the "good" Muslims from the "bad", the better off we'll be.

Islam's number one goal is the elimination or subjugation of all non-Muslims. Discussions which fail to recognize that fact first and foremost are a welcome distraction for the MB. Inevitably it buys them more time to infiltrate and coerce. To be blunt, they are nothing but a bunch of conniving dogs that bring nothing to western civilization that is good.

Yea they said the same thing about Catholicism in America and how there religion is Incompatible with Democracy back when Anti-Catholicism was fashionable.

[Double D]

Originally Posted by SpazFreak1911

Yea they said the same thing about Catholicism in America and how there religion is Incompatible with Democracy back when Anti-Catholicism was fashionable.

Not even close to the same thing. MT is right. It will NEVER work.

[whirley]

Have you noticed...Fox news, unbalanced carefully refers to the rioters in the streets as "Demonstrators" BUT calls the prople who oppose the Demonstrators as THUGS. Therefore according to Oreilly et al, if you burn cars rob stores, throw rocks at people, and kill those who disagree with you, you're just demonstrating your political independence. HOWEVER, if you try to protect yourself or your property, obviously you're just a THUG. Fox apparently is balanced, but to the far left.

[whirley]

If you read history, over 1200 years ago, the middle east was the center of medical progress and mathematics. That's where they measured the diameter of this planet, the length of a day,the length of a year, the cycle of the planets, the algebraic quantity of zero and negative numbers. The origin of the idea that the earth revolved around the sun, circulation of the blood through the body, and other mysteries of human anatomy were studied in the middle east. They knew the world was round during the time of the Pharoahs. The fork as an eating instrument came from the middle east during the crusades.

Then the Mullahs took over, and independent education in the middle east came to a screeching halt. The desert tribes still eat with their fingers.

[SpazFreak1911]

Originally Posted by Double D

Not even close to the same thing. MT is right. It will NEVER work.

It is the same as with all religions. No religion is Democratic all major religions are dictatorial is it not true that you either believe or burn in hell for eternity? obey god or else? Doesn't sound democratic to me. Exactly why there is separation of church and state because even early protestantism wasn't compatible with democracy. In order for a religion to be compatible with democracy it has to deviate and change from what it originally was.

[jack404]

Originally Posted by whirley

If you read history, over 1200 years ago, the middle east was the center of medical progress and mathematics. That's where they measured the diameter of this planet, the length of a day,the length of a year, the cycle of the planets, the algebraic quantity of zero and negative numbers. The origin of the idea that the earth revolved around the sun, circulation of the blood through the body, and other mysteries of human anatomy were studied in the middle east. They knew the world was round during the time of the Pharoahs. The fork as an eating instrument came from the middle east during the crusades.

Then the Mullahs took over, and independent education in the middle east came to a screeching halt. The desert tribes still eat with their fingers.

spot on , they actually went backwards, despite Arabic and Indian scholars work that showed the earth revolved around the sun , Moo ham odd used a old text as the basis so even today islamic schools teach the sun revolves around the earth.. cause moo ham odd cant be wrong ! allah says so , (through moo ham odd of course)

[SpazFreak1911]

Originally Posted by jack404

spot on , they actually went backwards, despite Arabic and Indian scholars work that showed the earth revolved around the sun , Moo ham odd used a old text as the basis so even today islamic schools teach the sun revolves around the earth.. cause moo ham odd cant be wrong ! allah says so , (through moo ham odd of course)

He was actually a Merchant and learned things from his travels and stole Greek Ideas and Science that was widely known threw out that region and Put it in the Quran. Especially the part of Embryology Which was Taken from Greek Philosopher his name escapes me. But he got it wrong so Muhammad also got it wrong.

[Bobitis]

Originally Posted by SpazFreak1911

It is the same as with all religions. No religion is Democratic all major religions are dictatorial is it not true that you either believe or burn in hell for eternity? obey god or else? Doesn't sound democratic to me. Exactly why there is separation of church and state because even early protestantism wasn't compatible with democracy. In order for a religion to be compatible with democracy it has to deviate and change from what it originally was.

Perfect!

Muslims won't/don't deviate in order to become civilized.
Every other religion in the world has adapted to the times at present.
Muslim has not. Their practitioners have a 'different' view of the way things should be. Convert or die.

The only religion in the world that hasn't adapted in a logical manner is Islam. Hell, they can't even agree among themselves!

[SpazFreak1911]

Originally Posted by Bobitis

Perfect!

Muslims won't/don't deviate in order to become civilized.
Every other religion in the world has adapted to the times at present.
Muslim has not. Their practitioners have a 'different' view of the way things should be. Convert or die.

The only religion in the world that hasn't adapted in a logical manner is Islam. Hell, they can't even agree among themselves!

hence why most of the Muslim world is 3rd world Christianity diluted it self enough and separated enough from its original roots that it allowed for civilization to advance. When you have a 1400 year old mindset in 2011 world your going to get left back.

[RunningOnMT]

Originally Posted by SpazFreak1911

Yea they said the same thing about Catholicism in America and how there religion is Incompatible with Democracy back when Anti-Catholicism was fashionable.

And just exactly was this Oh Wise One? Granted there has been ambivalence and hostility between catholics and protestants at various times since the reformation, but I challenge you to document instances of protestants claiming catholicism was incompatible with western democracy.

The fact that Islam is in fact incompatible is evidenced by the fact that it is more than simply a religion; it is in fact a system of governmental laws and ordinances which conflict with our forms of republican government and our system of justice. The religion demands a theocratic government.

Our constitution guarantees the Muslims right to worship as he chooses, but does not recognize his right to alter our form of government or our constitution, which he is want to do if he is a true believer.



By the way, punctuation is your friend. It's use will be of immense help as you advance in your studies.

[carver]

Originally Posted by SpazFreak1911

It is the same as with all religions. No religion is Democratic all major religions are dictatorial is it not true that you either believe or burn in hell for eternity? obey god or else? Doesn't sound democratic to me. Exactly why there is separation of church and state because even early protestantism wasn't compatible with democracy. In order for a religion to be compatible with democracy it has to deviate and change from what it originally was.

I understand where you are coming form, but you miss it on seperation of Church, and State. The reason for seperation of Church, and State, was because the countries our founding fathers came from had a State Church. In order to have a system that let everone believe the way they wanted to, it was made clear that a State Church was not going to happen in this new Government.

[carver]

Originally Posted by whirley

If you read history, over 1200 years ago, the middle east was the center of medical progress and mathematics. That's where they measured the diameter of this planet, the length of a day,the length of a year, the cycle of the planets, the algebraic quantity of zero and negative numbers. The origin of the idea that the earth revolved around the sun, circulation of the blood through the body, and other mysteries of human anatomy were studied in the middle east. They knew the world was round during the time of the Pharoahs. The fork as an eating instrument came from the middle east during the crusades.

Then the Mullahs took over, and independent education in the middle east came to a screeching halt. The desert tribes still eat with their fingers.

I hope everyone on TFF reads this post. Then get off their duffs, and do some research on this subject. And to those of you who might think that there are muslims that don't read/believe the Quran, don't believe in Sharia law, and won't obey the Mullahs, then you really need to do some reading.

[SpazFreak1911]

Originally Posted by RunningOnMT

And just exactly was this Oh Wise One? Granted there has been ambivalence and hostility between catholics and protestants at various times since the reformation, but I challenge you to document instances of protestants claiming catholicism was incompatible with western democracy.

The fact that Islam is in fact incompatible is evidenced by the fact that it is more than simply a religion; it is in fact a system of governmental laws and ordinances which conflict with our forms of republican government and our system of justice. The religion demands a theocratic government.

Our constitution guarantees the Muslims right to worship as he chooses, but does not recognize his right to alter our form of government or our constitution, which he is want to do if he is a true believer.



By the way, punctuation is your friend. It's use will be of immense help as you advance in your studies.

Really? did you even search?. In the 1920's one easy example was the KKK who were a protestant christian group that believed that Catholicism was incompatible with democracy. So much that they burned down a catholic church in 1925 ( church of the little flower). How about 1928 presidential Election? In which Al Smith a catholic was feared because people believed he would take orders from the Pope. Im surprised you asked this because this was prevalent even in the 1960's with Kennedy's election.

[RunningOnMT]

Originally Posted by SpazFreak1911

Really? did you even search?. In the 1920's one easy example was the KKK who were a protestant christian group that believed that Catholicism was incompatible with democracy. So much that they burned down a catholic church in 1925 ( church of the little flower). How about 1928 presidential Election? In which Al Smith a catholic was feared because people believed he would take orders from the Pope. Im surprised you asked this because this was prevalent even in the 1960's with Kennedy's election.

As I said there has been prejudice and animosity going both ways between catholics and protestants ever since the reformation, but that is a far cry from recognizing the true fundamental differences between how muslims view religion and government vs how the west views them. You are comparing apples and oranges.

Using the KKK's intolerance toward anyone except Christian whites as an example of a westerners perspective of Islam is unfair and insulting. I don't care how anyone chooses to worship, or who. In this country they have a right to worship as they please. But they don't have the right to change our constitution or system of justice to conform to their foreign religion. This country was founded by Christians and Jews in order to provide freedom for all to practice the religion of their choice but NOT TO CHANGE THE SYSTEM OF GOVERNMENT THAT GUARANTEES THAT FREEDOM.

[SpazFreak1911]

Originally Posted by RunningOnMT

As I said there has been prejudice and animosity going both ways between catholics and protestants ever since the reformation, but that is a far cry from recognizing the true fundamental differences between how muslims view religion and government vs how the west views them. You are comparing apples and oranges.

Using the KKK's intolerance toward anyone except Christian whites as an example of a westerners perspective of Islam is unfair and insulting. I don't care how anyone chooses to worship, or who. In this country they have a right to worship as they please. But they don't have the right to change our constitution or system of justice to conform to their foreign religion. This country was founded by Christians and Jews in order to provide freedom for all to practice the religion of their choice but NOT TO CHANGE THE SYSTEM OF GOVERNMENT THAT GUARANTEES THAT FREEDOM.

Like i have said Before, Modern Christians and Jews Deviated from there origins. They have accepted modern laws and civilization. The Islamic world for the most part have not Turkey is heading down a modernist road so far. This does not mean that many Muslims in this country have not modernized i know many Muslims that do not accept Shariah and do not use violent passages to justify murder in the quran. Just how you do not see a Jew killing someone for working on the sabbath. Many Muslim youth in this country are modernizing.

[ofitg]

Originally Posted by jack404

thinking out load here ,

remembering a conversation i once had , one of your folks ( US )
the basic of it where ....

MB are Sunni sect technically, Iran , how ever is Shi'a in a very Big way ..

and they hate each other with a vengence and both have totally wiped out some of the smaller sub sects of islam ( theres 73 or 72 left , we dunno yet about a part of Sudan ..)

the question was asked of me , where would you rather see them fight ? after they take over the joint ( meaning the free world ) in down town USA or at home before it gets that bad ?

ever wonder why some despot's are backed ? because they hold down even worse things often , often ruthlessly yes , but effective ,

the man stated he did not like carter so much but the blokes thinking it all up and selling it to him need a lot of respect ,

wheels within wheels some times folks , but looks like it all was just a delaying tactic..

If egypt goes MB , Israel is in for a "interesting time" , i'm watching Libya myself , even gadaffi has been finding "faith" the past few years , they combine , the thing will go conventional in a BIG way . its just time and maybe some religious coup to organise it all ..

Jack, I came across some interesting reading - includes discussion of Jimmy Carter's right-hand man, Zbigniew Brzezinski -

http://www.terrorism-illuminati.com/arc-of-crisis

I'm still trying to digest it all, but things are making more sense.

Man, those "Global Government" guys have us hopping around like puppets on strings!

[Gun Geezer]

Originally Posted by whirley

If you read history, over 1200 years ago, the middle east was the center of medical progress and mathematics. That's where they measured the diameter of this planet, the length of a day,the length of a year, the cycle of the planets, the algebraic quantity of zero and negative numbers. The origin of the idea that the earth revolved around the sun, circulation of the blood through the body, and other mysteries of human anatomy were studied in the middle east. They knew the world was round during the time of the Pharoahs. The fork as an eating instrument came from the middle east during the crusades.

Then the Mullahs took over, and independent education in the middle east came to a screeching halt. The desert tribes still eat with their fingers.

Winston Churchill said that Islam is the greatest retrograde religion the world has ever known. There is no way it could be compatible with Democracy!