Questions about C & R Regulations

[junk250]

Hello all,

I have the C & R application, and have been reading all I can on the net about it for a couple of months but there is a lot of conflicting/hard to understand info in the regs. and what I've read on the net(I know web info is questionable).

It would be nice if they sent the regs book with the application so you could read and hopefully understand the rules before applying for the license.

The BOLD notations are mine.

The questions I'm concerned about are,

#1) Is there any regulation concerning a "time frame" as to when you can "dispose" of a C & R item, if the quote below is correct, it seems you can't unless you have owned it for over 1 year.

Is this correct ?

A licensee may sell a firearm from
his or her personal collection, subject
only to the restrictions on firearm
sales by unlicensed persons, provided
the firearm was entered in the
licensee’s bound book and then transferred
to the licensee’s private collection
at least 1 year prior to the sale.

My definition of collecting includes "Buy,Sell, and Trade" and I thought that was OK with C & R as long as It wasn't "repeatedly and as a business/for a living".

But if it's against the regs to dispose/trade one within a year that would put a crimp on my old "buy,sell,trade" idea of collecting.

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#2) Of coarse I would comply with the regulations, and "going in" for an ATF inspection of the bound book seems reasonable enough, it seems written in the regs below that the ATF has a "blanket authority" to inspect any FFL holders firearms at any time with or WITHOUT a warrant (including your home?)

Pursuant to 27 CFR 478.23 (Right of entry and examination): (a) Except as provided in paragraph (b), any ATF officer, when there is reasonable cause to believe a violation of the Act has occurred and that evidence of the violation may be found on the premises of any licensed manufacturer, licensed importer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, may, upon demonstrating such cause before a Federal magistrate and obtaining from the magistrate a warrant authorizing entry, enter during business hours (or, in the case of a licensed
collector, the hours of operation) the premises, including places of storage, of any such licensee for the purpose of inspecting or examining:

1.) Any records or documents required to be kept by such licensee under this part and
2.) Any inventory of firearms or ammunition kept or stored by any licensed manufacturer, licensed importer, or licensed dealer at such premises or any firearms curios or relics or ammunition kept or stored by any licensed collector at such premises.

(c) Any ATF officer, without having reasonable cause to believe a violation of the Act has occurred or that evidence of the violation may be found and without demonstrating such cause before a Federal magistrate or obtaining from the magistrate a warrant authorizing entry, may enter during hours of operation the premises, including places of storage, of any licensed collector for the purpose
of inspecting or examining the records, documents, firearms, and ammunition referred to in paragraph (a) of this section (1) for ensuring compliance with the recordkeeping requirements of this part not more than once during any 12-month period or (2) when such inspection or examination may be required for determining the disposition of one or more particular firearms in the course of
a bona fide criminal investigation. At the election of the licensed collector, the annual inspection permitted by this paragraph shall be performed at the ATF office responsible for conducting such inspection in the closest proximity to the collector's premises.

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#3) I understand that all C & R firearms owned should be logged into bound book (even those owned before obtaining C & R license).

But the Federal C & R "list" is incomplete, and certainly does not list all firearms "eligible" for C & R status.

What about guns you might own that there is no way to know for sure if they "qualify" as C & R.

Some guns you may be able to date "positively" as over 50 years old by researching serial #s or Model #'s like Smiths for example, but many it would be nearly impossible to know "positively" if they were C & R eligible because there are no records to positively date by serial # or otherwise, and I wouldn't want to incorrectly log one that was not eligible as C & R ?

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#4)

If you let your C & R license expire, what if any requirements/restrictions do you have about holding your bound book or "disposing" of any or all of your collection ?

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I know I might be a little too concerned about all the little details I have listed above, and I would certainly "go by the book" but I'm not sure if I want to be subject to "warrant-less inspection"(if that's the case) by the ATF if I get the license.

It seems like a lot of "red tape" just to be able to acquire a few items a year, but I DO LIKE the idea of being able to purchase from from the Dealers that import the good Milsurps at reasonable price, and ONLY sell to FFL's .

Thanks

[deadin]

Do a little search around. I believe all of these questions have been asked and answered recently here on TFF.

I think you will find that your question #1 only pertains to dealers (FFL01's) and others with commercial type licenses, not FFL03's.

As I read it the difference in question #2 is a warrant with "reasonable cause" opens your whole house up to search. The one without "reasonable cause" is a record and collection search only and a FFL03 can opt to bring everything into the nearest ATF office for the audit.

Question #3...... Only entries needed in the book are acquisitions and dispositions of C&R firearms after receipt of license. (There have recently been several discussions about buying "on or off" the license. You will need to read them and make up your own mind an which path to follow.) As for any guns owned prior to license, they only need to be entered if you sell it.
(However, be prepared to show proof that you owned it before if you get audited.)
As for meeting the "50 year" rule. This can be problematic if you can't come up with a serial number list, letter from the manufacturer, etc. (Personally, if I'm unsure of a guns status I will enter it anyway. There's no law I know of that says it's illegal to enter a firearm unnecessarily.

#4. If your license expires there is no current requirement that you have to send it in. As far as if you have to keep it or not is something I haven't bothered to look up as I haven't let my license expire. (I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.)

[junk250]

Deadin, Hello friend

Do a little search around. I believe all of these questions have been asked and answered recently here on TFF.

Yes I have read up on it A LOT on this forum and elsewhere, I think the more I read up on it the more unsure I am about the details.

I think the reason to a lot of the confusion is many of the regs posted in the forums are snips taken from the FFL 01 rules mixed in with the FFL 03 rules since they are all in the same reg book (I think).

And then it seems the ATF actually mixes in 01 and 03 regs in their own descriptions like this part that specifically states "collectors" (03) and "during business hours" (01) in the same sentence !

may enter during hours of operation the premises, including places of storage, of any licensed collector for the purpose
of inspecting or examining the records, documents, firearms, and ammunition

[gdmoody]

The way I understand it is that you must have the weapon 1 year before you are allowed to sell it. The C&R is not a license to go into the gun business.

Again, the way I understand it is that YES they can come into your house, at any time, and look at the guns that you bought with the C&R.

I totally disagree with your number 3 statement. I have searched the regulations and have found nothing that specifically says you have to enter any firearm that you did not purchase using the C&R, including any had before you got the C&R. There was a thread about this a while back and as a result of that thread, I called the ATF office in Atlanta and specifically asked this question. The woman I spoke with told me that I did not have to list ones I did not use the C&R to buy. When I put that in the thread, I was basically called a liar!

I do not know the answer to your last question but I need to find out because after nine years, I am thinking seriously about not renewing mine.

[deadin]

Title 27, Section 478.125(f):

(f) Firearms receipt and disposition by licensed collectors. Each
licensed collector shall enter into a record each receipt and
disposition of firearms curios or relics. The record required by this
paragraph shall be maintained in bound form under the format prescribed
below. The purchase or other acquisition of a curio or relic shall,
except as provided in paragraph (g) of this section, be recorded not
later than the close of the next business day following the date of such
purchase or other acquisition.

Note that it says SHALL, not IF the collector "used" his license.
According to my attorney, SHALL is a very strong word when reading laws and regulations.
However, you are free to read it how you want, just don't expect a judge to read it the same way.

(BTW Section (g) mentioned has to do with extending the time required for entering information in the book to 7 days if you have a commercial record of the transaction. (i.e. sales receipt.)

[the Riddick]

You need to enter ALL SALES and PURCHASES after you get your license. It don't matter if you show your class 3 license when you buy the gun or not!! You don't need to enter in the book what you had in your private stock. But you do enter it when you sell it.... I have a friend who's gunsmith and has his class 3 license. He made one serial number mistake in his book because the serial number on the relic was so hard to see he thought a 8 was a 3..... and he said they went all postal on him..... Looking at every guns serial number he had in the book... and wanted to see if they found other guns not logged in.... He said it really sucked.... Plus they fined him... They don't play around. Forget to dot an i? And they are all over you he said.....

[gdmoody]

I guess I will have to start worrying about it, whenever I find myself in front of a judge.

[junk250]

Thanks everyone,

#1) I'm still wondering if the below quote applies to C & R 03, or maybe to FFL 01 dealers private sales or something else.

provided the firearm was entered in the licensee’s bound book and then transferred to the licensee’s private collection at least 1 year prior to the sale.

I know the C & R is not a license to go into the gun business, but I don't know why a C & R 03 would have a restriction to wait a year to dispose of one, and I'm thinking the quote above doesn't apply to C & R 03 ?

I just want to "collect" (buy,sell,trade) maybe a few a year as a hobby not as a business, and that seems to be within the definition of the C & R 03 license.

The term “engaged in the business,” as applicable to a firearms dealer, is defined as a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms.

#2) I guess this is a non issue, the ATF will do what they want anyway. And I certainly won't be doing anything against the law. I just want to collect a few C & R items.


#3) Seems previously owned items only need to be logged if/when sold, and all C & R purchased with or without using the license need to be logged.

Thanks again

[deadin]

provided the firearm was entered in the licensee’s bound book and then transferred to the licensee’s private collection at least 1 year prior to the sale.

junk,
The above is from Title 27 Section 478.125a(a)(1).
You need to read the whole section, i.e. 478.125a(a) where it states:

(a) Notwithstanding any other provision
of this subpart, a licensed manufacturer,
licensed importer, or licensed
dealer is not required to comply with
the provisions of § 478.102

Note that this section does not mention Collectors, only manufacturer, importer or dealer. 478.102 also pertains to the same.

[jmace57]

OOOOOkay...

[deadin]

??????????????????????????????? Huh ????????????????????????/

[gdmoody]

Amy, you are in the wrong place, I think!!!!!!!

[justbill]

While it would be nice to get a discounted price and delivery to your doorstep, the more I read about the C&R license the less I'm interested. My collection is very modest and plans for future acquisitions are the same. I'm happy with one example of this gun, one of that one. To me it seems the potential for government intrusion into my personal life is too much a bother for the gains.

Wouldn't it be great if we could go back to the days of pre-'68?