Questions about my 1st 1911 - The Firearms Forum

Gammetrunner · 02-21-2011, 08:10 PM

I'm new to the forum. I have been wanting for some time a 1911. I had been looking for one of the Argentina Sistema Colts but instead I was able to get my hands on an older model. I have done some research on the 1911 through websites but was hoping to get some input by some who may have more experience and knowledge on them. This 1911 has a worn finish, no rust. The action works good and its in firing condition. From my research it appears it may have been made in 1944. The serial number is 1,7XX,XXX range.
What I'm having some trouble determining though is exactly what model 1911 it is. On the left side it is marked with the patend dates up to Aug. 13, 1913. Next to that is stamped Colt's PT F.A. MFG. CO. Hartford CT. USA. Just below the slide lock is stamped "FJA". On the right side of the slide is stamped "MODEL OF 1911 U.S. ARMY" Below that on the frame is stamped "United States property" and below this is stamped "NO" and the serial number. Forward on the frame a little to the serial number is stamped "M1911A U. S. Army. I don't see anywhere on the pistol where it says it is a Colt, Remington Rand or Ithaca. I have looked at some pics showing the different markings of these pistols but none have really matched mine. My best guess from researching is that it is a Remington Rand but just was not stamped.
Any help would be greatly appreciated. I attached some pictures of it.

TheGunClinger · 02-21-2011, 08:36 PM

Could be a Colt or a R/R but your ser# 1,7XX,XXX isnt close enough. Include a few more numbers. From your pics the beavertail looks wrong as does the trigger. Also the hammer looks to be two tone, parked on one side, shiney on the other. Perhaps you could give some more info on the Ser#? Dont worry, no one will come and arrest you as it is actually not Property of the US gov. Also if you could post some clearer pics in all angles would be good.

Gammetrunner · 02-21-2011, 08:48 PM

Thanks for the response. Not worried about serial number. It's #1750XXX. I do feel the trigger and beaver tail have been replaced. Sorry about the pictures. They are from my cell phone will try to get some better pics with actual camera.
thanks

Gammetrunner · 02-21-2011, 09:32 PM

Here are some better pics. Would like to know if it is a Colt or RR.

Shooter45 · 02-22-2011, 05:33 AM

1944 Ithaca Gun Co.

GunHugger · 02-22-2011, 05:43 AM

My Ithaca said Ithaca on the left side of the slide. ???

TheGunClinger · 02-22-2011, 05:46 AM

My book says the frame is a 1944 Remington Rand. #'s go from 1743847-1816641 Grips do not look like original Colts, hammer, trigger and beavertail have been replaced. Slide is Colt. It's a good shooter.

Shooter45 · 02-22-2011, 07:39 AM

The slide is Colt.

Ithaca serial #'s for a 1944 1911-A1 frame are 1743847 - 1890503

The Remington Rand serial #'s for 1944 1911-A1 frame are 1890504 - 2075103

The Gov't inspectors mark FJA, Lt Col. FJ Atwood was an inspector for Ithaca, US&S and Remington Rand from 1942 - 1944

That adds to the confusion doesn't it. The NO proof mark isn't in any of my notes.

There is some doubt about the accuracy of the printed serial numbers. Mr Fred Carpenter has published several articles in the Arms Gazette Magazine concerning the inaccuracies he has found. The latest article was the June 1979 issue.

When identification of a particular pistol is sought, the inspectors initials be compared with the serial number. It didn't help much in this case.

Gammetrunner · 02-22-2011, 09:15 AM

I have examinined the markings closer and found just behind the slide grip near the rear of the slide there is a Colt stamp. I have seen the similar Colt stamp on slides between the patend numbers and the Colt PT. F.A. MFG.CO HARTFORD CT USA stamp. This Colt stamp is just behind the slide grip and does not have a ring around it or it may be faded.
I attached a pic.

Shooter45 · 02-22-2011, 09:55 AM

No doubt about the slide being Colt. Our concern at this time is the frame. Check it very closely to see if anything was missed.

Gammetrunner · 02-22-2011, 12:54 PM

Here are a couple more pics of the frame around the trigger. On the left side near the magazine release is stamped the letter "P". On the trigger guard is stamped the letter "L". On the right side on the upper trigger guard stamped is "A" and the lower trigger guard is stamped "U". Those are all the markings I can find on the frame other than the ones I have already posted.
Thanks to everyone for the information!

TheGunClinger · 02-22-2011, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shooter45

The slide is Colt.

Ithaca serial #'s for a 1944 1911-A1 frame are 1743847 - 1890503

The Remington Rand serial #'s for 1944 1911-A1 frame are 1890504 - 2075103

The Gov't inspectors mark FJA, Lt Col. FJ Atwood was an inspector for Ithaca, US&S and Remington Rand from 1942 - 1944

That adds to the confusion doesn't it. The NO proof mark isn't in any of my notes.

There is some doubt about the accuracy of the printed serial numbers. Mr Fred Carpenter has published several articles in the Arms Gazette Magazine concerning the inaccuracies he has found. The latest article was the June 1979 issue.

When identification of a particular pistol is sought, the inspectors initials be compared with the serial number. It didn't help much in this case.

Shooter, You have been doing this a whole lot longer than me and I want to learn all I can so help me out with this one. I dont know what I am doing wrong to get this info incorrect and need you to point me in the right direction.
I am using the Collectors guide to Colt .45 Service Pistols Third ed. by Charles W. Clawson and am looking at page 145. The range of Ser#'s shown for Remington Rand is what I posted earlier, 1471431-1609528. In the Ser range you posted (1743847 - 1890503) that encompasses the 1944 R/R and the 44-45 Ithaca. The R/R ser#'s you posted (1890504 - 2075103) are correct except it would be for 1944-1945. Jeeesh! I am confusing myself even more that I already are!

Anyhows, Help me out as I am confuseded

Shooter45 · 02-22-2011, 07:08 PM

GC, that's what I meant by the statement. My notes are over 30 years old and were corrected somewhat by Fred Carpenter. I could have missed something. If Clawson's printing is newer that 1979, I may need to update.

This is the first one I have wrong if you are right. I'll double check in a few days when I get back home. In the meantime, check another source. We could both be wrong. lol

Gammetrunner · 02-23-2011, 07:41 AM

I do appreciate all the information. I have also been trying to read what I can to try and learn more on my 1911. So I guess its safe to say that the slide and frame are from two different manufacturers. My other question is how does this effect the value of the weapon? I'm just curious, I dont plan on selling it because I'm happy to have one even if the parts are different.

OcelotZ3 · 02-23-2011, 11:22 PM

As others have said, it looks like a nice shooter!

TheGunClinger · 02-25-2011, 10:21 AM

Heres a couple of sites I found that give ser#'s. Ima going to keep looking.

http://www.coolgunsite.com/pistols/colt%20production.htm
http://www.sightm1911.com/1911Production.htm

EDIT... Whilst searching I found an interesting tidbit regarding my Ithaca. My Ser# is 1452***. On both of the sites I listed above, mine would be a 1943 Ithaca.
In Clawson's book it is listed as a 1944.Clawson is considered to be THE authority on M1911A1's so I guess mine is a year newer. Lots of mis-information floating around out there. The op's gun is still listed in all three sources as a 1944 R/R.

Shooter45 · 02-26-2011, 10:34 AM

See what I mean. Now, I'll have to change my notes.

There is some misinformation still out there and I don't know if it will ever be corrected. We can only keep trying.
Thanks for the correction.

When I wrote the History of the 1911 National Match Pistol for Syd, I caught a mistake there but got it corrected before submitting the article for print. The 1911 will keep you on your toes.

Gammetrunner · 03-01-2011, 08:03 AM

Yeah, I checked several sites as well and it is a bit confusing. I looks like a RR some places and an Ithaca in others. Was it common in this time when these were manufactured to mix and match slides and frames from the factory? Or I guess it could have been done later

TheGunClinger · 03-01-2011, 06:23 PM

You have a Colt slide and a Remington Rand frame. It is a parts gun. After the war all of the M1911A1's were sent to various arsenals for refurbishing. They were stripped of all parts which were thrown into bins. Then the bins were cherry picked for the best of the best and then were refurbished and re-parked. Then they re-assembled using all the mish mash parts and came out with a nicely re-furbed M1911A1 pistol. Sometimes you got lucky and all the parts were from one supplier and most times not. Thats the beauty of Mil-spec. You can mix and max most any brand of gun and still have a nice wartime M1911A1.

Double D · 03-01-2011, 06:49 PM

Yea, same thing I have. Even though its a parts gun, it holds alot of history. It may not be worth as much as a matched gun, but it still has value and is going up every year. I just appreciate the history so much, I want to pass mine along to the next generation. If it could only talk....

TheGunClinger · 03-01-2011, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Double D

Yea, same thing I have. Even though its a parts gun, it holds alot of history. It may not be worth as much as a matched gun, but it still has value and is going up every year. I just appreciate the history so much, I want to pass mine along to the next generation. If it could only talk....

Same as me. All I need to make mine correct is a 7 rib mainspring housing and a right Keyes grip.

Gammetrunner · 03-07-2011, 09:01 PM

Great info. Thanks

Gammetrunner · 03-09-2011, 07:41 PM

Stripped it down completely and cleaned it real good. Can tell that hadn't been done for a lonnng time. Question about the main spring. Is it supposed to be so stiff and difficult to get the housing back into place? I felt like it was a chore to do. I had to really tap the pin to set it back into place.

02-21-2011, 08:36 PM	#2
TheGunClinger Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: SW Florida Contributor Posts: 2,399	Re: Questions about my 1st 1911 Could be a Colt or a R/R but your ser# 1,7XX,XXX isnt close enough. Include a few more numbers. From your pics the beavertail looks wrong as does the trigger. Also the hammer looks to be two tone, parked on one side, shiney on the other. Perhaps you could give some more info on the Ser#? Dont worry, no one will come and arrest you as it is actually not Property of the US gov. Also if you could post some clearer pics in all angles would be good. __________________ New England Patriots Rule Next year.

02-21-2011, 08:48 PM	#3
Gammetrunner Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 10	Re: Questions about my 1st 1911 Thanks for the response. Not worried about serial number. It's #1750XXX. I do feel the trigger and beaver tail have been replaced. Sorry about the pictures. They are from my cell phone will try to get some better pics with actual camera. thanks

02-21-2011, 09:32 PM	#4
Gammetrunner Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 10	Re: Questions about my 1st 1911 Here are some better pics. Would like to know if it is a Colt or RR. Attached Images

02-22-2011, 05:33 AM	#5
Shooter45 Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Contributor Posts: 8,786	Re: Questions about my 1st 1911 1944 Ithaca Gun Co.

02-22-2011, 05:43 AM	#6
GunHugger Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: SW PA Posts: 1,162	Re: Questions about my 1st 1911 My Ithaca said Ithaca on the left side of the slide. ??? __________________ . “There will be a revolution in this country!” “I don’t believe people should to be able to own guns.” ~Barack Obama "Stand your ground. Don't fire unless fired upon, but if they mean to have a war let it begin here." ~Captain John Parker, to his Minute Men on Lexington Green, April 19, 1775.

02-21-2011, 08:10 PM	#1
Gammetrunner Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 10	Questions about my 1st 1911 I'm new to the forum. I have been wanting for some time a 1911. I had been looking for one of the Argentina Sistema Colts but instead I was able to get my hands on an older model. I have done some research on the 1911 through websites but was hoping to get some input by some who may have more experience and knowledge on them. This 1911 has a worn finish, no rust. The action works good and its in firing condition. From my research it appears it may have been made in 1944. The serial number is 1,7XX,XXX range. What I'm having some trouble determining though is exactly what model 1911 it is. On the left side it is marked with the patend dates up to Aug. 13, 1913. Next to that is stamped Colt's PT F.A. MFG. CO. Hartford CT. USA. Just below the slide lock is stamped "FJA". On the right side of the slide is stamped "MODEL OF 1911 U.S. ARMY" Below that on the frame is stamped "United States property" and below this is stamped "NO" and the serial number. Forward on the frame a little to the serial number is stamped "M1911A U. S. Army. I don't see anywhere on the pistol where it says it is a Colt, Remington Rand or Ithaca. I have looked at some pics showing the different markings of these pistols but none have really matched mine. My best guess from researching is that it is a Remington Rand but just was not stamped. Any help would be greatly appreciated. I attached some pictures of it. Attached Images --> Last edited by Gammetrunner; 02-21-2011 at 08:16 PM..

02-22-2011, 05:46 AM	#7
TheGunClinger Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: SW Florida Contributor Posts: 2,399	Re: Questions about my 1st 1911 My book says the frame is a 1944 Remington Rand. #'s go from 1743847-1816641 Grips do not look like original Colts, hammer, trigger and beavertail have been replaced. Slide is Colt. It's a good shooter. __________________ New England Patriots Rule Next year.

02-22-2011, 07:39 AM	#8
Shooter45 Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Contributor Posts: 8,786	Re: Questions about my 1st 1911 The slide is Colt. Ithaca serial #'s for a 1944 1911-A1 frame are 1743847 - 1890503 The Remington Rand serial #'s for 1944 1911-A1 frame are 1890504 - 2075103 The Gov't inspectors mark FJA, Lt Col. FJ Atwood was an inspector for Ithaca, US&S and Remington Rand from 1942 - 1944 That adds to the confusion doesn't it. The NO proof mark isn't in any of my notes. There is some doubt about the accuracy of the printed serial numbers. Mr Fred Carpenter has published several articles in the Arms Gazette Magazine concerning the inaccuracies he has found. The latest article was the June 1979 issue. When identification of a particular pistol is sought, the inspectors initials be compared with the serial number. It didn't help much in this case.

02-22-2011, 09:15 AM	#9
Gammetrunner Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 10	Re: Questions about my 1st 1911 I have examinined the markings closer and found just behind the slide grip near the rear of the slide there is a Colt stamp. I have seen the similar Colt stamp on slides between the patend numbers and the Colt PT. F.A. MFG.CO HARTFORD CT USA stamp. This Colt stamp is just behind the slide grip and does not have a ring around it or it may be faded. I attached a pic. Attached Images

02-22-2011, 09:55 AM	#10
Shooter45 Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Contributor Posts: 8,786	Re: Questions about my 1st 1911 No doubt about the slide being Colt. Our concern at this time is the frame. Check it very closely to see if anything was missed.

02-22-2011, 12:54 PM	#11
Gammetrunner Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 10	Re: Questions about my 1st 1911 Here are a couple more pics of the frame around the trigger. On the left side near the magazine release is stamped the letter "P". On the trigger guard is stamped the letter "L". On the right side on the upper trigger guard stamped is "A" and the lower trigger guard is stamped "U". Those are all the markings I can find on the frame other than the ones I have already posted. Thanks to everyone for the information! Attached Images

02-22-2011, 07:08 PM	#13
Shooter45 Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Contributor Posts: 8,786	Re: Questions about my 1st 1911 GC, that's what I meant by the statement. My notes are over 30 years old and were corrected somewhat by Fred Carpenter. I could have missed something. If Clawson's printing is newer that 1979, I may need to update. This is the first one I have wrong if you are right. I'll double check in a few days when I get back home. In the meantime, check another source. We could both be wrong. lol

02-23-2011, 07:41 AM	#14
Gammetrunner Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 10	Re: Questions about my 1st 1911 I do appreciate all the information. I have also been trying to read what I can to try and learn more on my 1911. So I guess its safe to say that the slide and frame are from two different manufacturers. My other question is how does this effect the value of the weapon? I'm just curious, I dont plan on selling it because I'm happy to have one even if the parts are different.

02-23-2011, 11:22 PM	#15
OcelotZ3 Former Guest Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 73	Re: Questions about my 1st 1911 As others have said, it looks like a nice shooter!

02-25-2011, 10:21 AM	#16
TheGunClinger Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: SW Florida Contributor Posts: 2,399	Re: Questions about my 1st 1911 Heres a couple of sites I found that give ser#'s. Ima going to keep looking. http://www.coolgunsite.com/pistols/colt%20production.htm http://www.sightm1911.com/1911Production.htm EDIT... Whilst searching I found an interesting tidbit regarding my Ithaca. My Ser# is 1452. On both of the sites I listed above, mine would be a 1943 Ithaca.* In Clawson's book it is listed as a 1944.Clawson is considered to be THE authority on M1911A1's so I guess mine is a year newer. Lots of mis-information floating around out there. The op's gun is still listed in all three sources as a 1944 R/R. __________________ New England Patriots Rule Next year. Last edited by TheGunClinger; 02-26-2011 at 09:33 AM..

02-26-2011, 10:34 AM	#17
Shooter45 Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Contributor Posts: 8,786	Re: Questions about my 1st 1911 See what I mean. Now, I'll have to change my notes. There is some misinformation still out there and I don't know if it will ever be corrected. We can only keep trying. Thanks for the correction. When I wrote the History of the 1911 National Match Pistol for Syd, I caught a mistake there but got it corrected before submitting the article for print. The 1911 will keep you on your toes.

03-01-2011, 08:03 AM	#18
Gammetrunner Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 10	Re: Questions about my 1st 1911 Yeah, I checked several sites as well and it is a bit confusing. I looks like a RR some places and an Ithaca in others. Was it common in this time when these were manufactured to mix and match slides and frames from the factory? Or I guess it could have been done later

03-01-2011, 06:23 PM	#19
TheGunClinger Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: SW Florida Contributor Posts: 2,399	Re: Questions about my 1st 1911 You have a Colt slide and a Remington Rand frame. It is a parts gun. After the war all of the M1911A1's were sent to various arsenals for refurbishing. They were stripped of all parts which were thrown into bins. Then the bins were cherry picked for the best of the best and then were refurbished and re-parked. Then they re-assembled using all the mish mash parts and came out with a nicely re-furbed M1911A1 pistol. Sometimes you got lucky and all the parts were from one supplier and most times not. Thats the beauty of Mil-spec. You can mix and max most any brand of gun and still have a nice wartime M1911A1. __________________ New England Patriots Rule Next year. Last edited by TheGunClinger; 03-01-2011 at 06:24 PM..

03-01-2011, 06:49 PM	#20
Double D TFF Moderator/Host Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: North Florida Contributor Posts: 8,246	Re: Questions about my 1st 1911 Yea, same thing I have. Even though its a parts gun, it holds alot of history. It may not be worth as much as a matched gun, but it still has value and is going up every year. I just appreciate the history so much, I want to pass mine along to the next generation. If it could only talk.... __________________ I own a bunch of scary guns. You want em? Come and take em..... Liberalism is a serious, non curable, mental disorder... NRA LIFE MEMBER Oath Keepers Member NRA Certified Instructor 30 Yr CC permit holder.

03-07-2011, 09:01 PM	#22
Gammetrunner Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 10	Re: Questions about my 1st 1911 Great info. Thanks

03-09-2011, 07:41 PM	#23
Gammetrunner Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 10	Re: Questions about my 1st 1911 Stripped it down completely and cleaned it real good. Can tell that hadn't been done for a lonnng time. Question about the main spring. Is it supposed to be so stiff and difficult to get the housing back into place? I felt like it was a chore to do. I had to really tap the pin to set it back into place.