AK 47 FTE, wobbly bolt - The Firearms Forum

pinkerpv · 02-23-2011, 11:02 AM

I have read on several forums that FTE on an AK 47 could be caused by a wobbly bolt inside the bolt carrier. I am experiencing this pbm with a WASR I just purchased. I also have a SAR; It never fails to eject. The bolt does not wobble in the Bolt carrier. The two carriers are of course just alike with the exception of the thickness of the metal in some areas. Both bolts appear to be OK. Extractor on the WSAR is OK. Ejector rails appear to be OK. However the bolt can move enough inside the Bolt carrier to allow the casing to just barely hit the ejector or miss it altogether. During operation I am getting about 10 rounds fired when the first FTE occurs. After that, FTEs occur every round so. A solution is to change out the bolt or bolt carrier or both. Also swap bolts and carriers and see if pbm persists. Is there any other solution to wobbly bolt in the AK? I don't think this is a mag problem, as it occurs with all mags.

Does anyone know where I can get a bolt carrier? Only found one website so far. Some gun shows are coming up in my area and I will look there.

Helix_FR · 02-23-2011, 11:17 AM

Change the bolt only. The bolt also rides in the rails in the reciever. If its worn then it will tend to flop around. If you have a excessive amount of up and down slop then change the carrier. Get a new bolt, not a used surplus bolt. Brownells carries them. Its not a mag problem.

JLA · 02-23-2011, 11:26 AM

Helix is spot on. when the bolt becomes wobbly from exessive wear, the ejector wont contact the case consistently and cause ejection problems. I would change both the bolt and carrier and be done with the problem

pinkerpv · 02-24-2011, 09:53 AM

Helix, JLA; Thanks for the response. On really close examination and comparison of the two bolts, the lugs on the WSAR AK are a little worn and are not as beefy as the one from my SAR. Checked out Brownells. Do you think there might be a headspace pbm with new bolt?

Helix_FR · 02-24-2011, 10:58 AM

Headspace? on a AK? they do that?

Haven't had a problem yet. That's why I said new. Used bolt could do the same thing your experiencing now also headspace issues. New bolt you won't run into that.

pinkerpv · 02-25-2011, 07:54 AM

Helix, thanks. Didn't think H/S was a pbm, but heard it on another forum.

pinkerpv · 02-28-2011, 12:33 PM

I took measurements with a caliper on the WSAR and then compared the measurements to the SAR. The gap between the WASR rails just above the ejector was 1.000 in and the gap between the ejector and opposite rail is .517 in. The gap on the SAR was .984 and .497 respectively. So the gap on the WSAR is larger than on the SAR. I have included a picture of the two receivers with ejectors side by side.
WSAR is on the right. Note dimple on SAR on left. SAR appears to have more robust Ejector.

At a gun show this past weekend I found a guy selling AK parts and discussed it with him. He was pretty convinced that the bolt was not the problem; however he did try another bolt in the carrier and saw that it was a better fit. He still suggested before I buy another bolt and/or carrier, I try to close the gap between the rails and the ejector. Any other suggestions.

Helix_FR · 02-28-2011, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pinkerpv

At a gun show this past weekend I found a guy selling AK parts and discussed it with him. He was pretty convinced that the bolt was not the problem; however he did try another bolt in the carrier and saw that it was a better fit. He still suggested before I buy another bolt and/or carrier, I try to close the gap between the rails and the ejector. Any other suggestions.

and how does he presume you do that without altering the receiver? Can't swap ejectors, You could have someone build up a weld on the ejector and reshape it, risk changing the temper on the receiver and snapping the whole thing off. There is no adapter, there is no insert and you said it right there "he tried another bolt in the carrier and it was a better fit". How much more convincing do you need? He was a parts guy, not a gunsmith. He's asking you to do something very very stupid. Sorry for the rant but this burns me when some parts guy at a gun show trumps solid proven advice. GET A BOLT and a new one-not from some guys junk parts bin.

JLA · 02-28-2011, 09:14 PM

I very much agree with Helix on this one. Parts swappers claiming to be smiths give smiths a bad rep. They need a good ol fashined texas sized ass beating IMO!!!

sniper69 · 02-28-2011, 11:45 PM

If swapping out the bolt in an AK for another one, head space should be checked. Even if the replacement bolt is new. SAAMI gages might not be 100%, but the CIP gages should work fine.

pinkerpv · 03-03-2011, 08:41 AM

Thanks for all the info. Here is what I have done so far.
I closed the distance a few 1000s on the WASR receiver. This made the gap between the ejector and the receiver rail smaller, about the same as the SAR.
At the range yesterday I fired the WSAR and managed to get about 10 rnds off before the FTE. I then swapped the bolts and carriers between the WSAR and SAR and guess what. No FTEs in about 50 rds. I did have one FTE in the SAR with the other bolt in about 50 rds.

I’m going to replace the bolt with a new one. I'll have to find the gauges to check the head space.

Jim Hauff · 03-03-2011, 10:47 AM

pinkerpv,
Try this site for gauges: http://ak-builder.com/index.php?disp...ategory_id=208

Double D · 03-03-2011, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pinkerpv

Thanks for all the info. Here is what I have done so far.
I closed the distance a few 1000s on the WASR receiver. This made the gap between the ejector and the receiver rail smaller, about the same as the SAR.
At the range yesterday I fired the WSAR and managed to get about 10 rnds off before the FTE. I then swapped the bolts and carriers between the WSAR and SAR and guess what. No FTEs in about 50 rds. I did have one FTE in the SAR with the other bolt in about 50 rds.

I’m going to replace the bolt with a new one. I'll have to find the gauges to check the head space.

I have a question. You asked for advice and then didnt listen to the advice given and went a round about way to find out that the advice you got was correct. Then someone says headspace and you didnt think that to be a problem, but are now going to buy a guage to check it. I am just a little confused. Also, you were told that attempting to close the gap on the reciever was risky and you did it anyhow. What method did you use for this "adjustment"?

Helix_FR · 03-03-2011, 11:45 AM

Though I know the point of checking head space, but do you actually think that these piece mealed, duct taped, wire wrapped, 2x4 for a stock AK's used in the middle east ever seen the likes of a headspace gauge?

Doubtful

pinkerpv · 03-05-2011, 10:04 AM

Double D; I can appreciate your comments. I asked for help/info on other forums as well as this one. I also read several articles. The timing of my request for info and the responses don't always coincide. But I do take all the info into consideration and make a decision with that available info on what to do. Later responses with info may alter my decision on what to do. Also its sometimes hard to determine the level of expertise in the response. Usually its done by my familiarity with the issue, the wording in the response, number of posts and previous post by responders and my gut. I don't want to take someone's post and act on it and then blame them for poor results, so i make my own decision as to what to do and then I blame only myself.

I do agree with you that it may be confusing for someone reading the thread. This works for me. There are many posters with much expertise and I have learned a great deal form many of them. And I do appreciate everyone's responses to my questions and requests for help.

Helix FR; I agree with you in a way; however, you wont believe how many people on other forums talk about checking head space. Even Sniper 69 above.

As I mentioned above in an earlier post, I measured the distance between the rails and also between the ejector and opposite rail with a digital caliper. Then using a rubber mallet(in finest AK fashion) I hit the receiver side several times and rechecked distance. This is the method a gunsmith told me about. After all many AK receivers are made from flat blanks this way. After closing the distance some and measuring along the receiver with calipers, i went to the range and fired the WSAR getting the same results of 10 rnds fired and then a failure to Eject. That's when I swapped bolts and decided that maybe a new bolt was the key. BTW, before swapping bolts in the field, I had checked them first at home , even chambering a spent casing and a cartridge to ensure the bolt lugs locked up and observing distance from the bolt face to chamber. Crude, I know but the best I could do. After the range time, at home in my shop I checked the distance with the caliper and found that the distance had not opened up with the firing. So I continued striking the sides of the receiver until the rail and ejector distance were the exact same as the SAR. I have not refired the WSAR yet, but am interested in seeing if this corrects the problem.

If my methods offend or confuse, I am sorry. I am not intending that.

Double D · 03-06-2011, 01:59 PM

No problem, thanks for the explanation. Cheers.....

pinkerpv · 03-12-2011, 09:13 AM

Last week after the poor range showing, I closed the gap between the ejector and opposite rail to exact dimensions of the SAR. Tested it at home ejecting rounds. Everything was OK.

Yesterday I took the WSAR to the range and fired 3 magazines in rapid succession. Not a single Failure to eject. At home I measured the gap between the ejector rail and the opposite side. The distance was .497 in. Same as the SAR. It had not moved any in the range firing. Sooo I believe I have solved the Failure to eject problem. Note: the WSAR receiver and ejector is not as robust as the SAR. I will continue to watch this to ensure the rails don't creep. the Gunsmith guy at the gunshow told me the receiver was "sprung" and suggested the procedure below.

BTW, my method of adjusting the distance between the rails was by a rubber mallet. Lay the WSAR on it side on a piece of thick cardboard over sturdy table. Using a rubber mallet in finest gun smith tradition, strike the side of the AK fairly hard, then check the results using digital calipers. Repeat the process varying the strike location for more consistent shaping until desired closure distance is achieved. Test process by firing gun.

warriflefan · 09-18-2011, 10:30 AM

Headspace could be kinda important with a stamped receiver. You could probably get a set from brownells for 60 bucks.

45Auto · 09-20-2011, 10:40 AM

I never had a problem with an AK (knock on wood), and so I have no experience with anything but basic maintenance of the mechanism.

For future referance, how good is parts interchageability in the AK family? For example, if you have one from Romania, would Yugoslav, Russian and Chinese parts work in it?

02-23-2011, 11:02 AM	#1
pinkerpv V.I.P. Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Alabama Posts: 61	AK 47 FTE, wobbly bolt I have read on several forums that FTE on an AK 47 could be caused by a wobbly bolt inside the bolt carrier. I am experiencing this pbm with a WASR I just purchased. I also have a SAR; It never fails to eject. The bolt does not wobble in the Bolt carrier. The two carriers are of course just alike with the exception of the thickness of the metal in some areas. Both bolts appear to be OK. Extractor on the WSAR is OK. Ejector rails appear to be OK. However the bolt can move enough inside the Bolt carrier to allow the casing to just barely hit the ejector or miss it altogether. During operation I am getting about 10 rounds fired when the first FTE occurs. After that, FTEs occur every round so. A solution is to change out the bolt or bolt carrier or both. Also swap bolts and carriers and see if pbm persists. Is there any other solution to wobbly bolt in the AK? I don't think this is a mag problem, as it occurs with all mags. Does anyone know where I can get a bolt carrier? Only found one website so far. Some gun shows are coming up in my area and I will look there. -->

02-23-2011, 11:17 AM	#2
Helix_FR TFF Moderator/Host Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Imperial, MO Posts: 3,624	Re: AK 47 FTE, wobbly bolt Change the bolt only. The bolt also rides in the rails in the reciever. If its worn then it will tend to flop around. If you have a excessive amount of up and down slop then change the carrier. Get a new bolt, not a used surplus bolt. Brownells carries them. Its not a mag problem. __________________ Only cowards shoot with their eyes closed.... helixgunsmith.com

02-23-2011, 11:26 AM	#3
JLA TFF Moderator/Host Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Heart Of Texas Contributor Posts: 17,320	Re: AK 47 FTE, wobbly bolt Helix is spot on. when the bolt becomes wobbly from exessive wear, the ejector wont contact the case consistently and cause ejection problems. I would change both the bolt and carrier and be done with the problem __________________ It takes 43 muscles to frown, 17 to smile, and 3 for proper trigger squeeze. The latest caliber or gear is no substitute for experience and skill. Rifles and cartridges don't make hits -- shooters do. Fact of life: After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says WTF!

02-24-2011, 09:53 AM	#4
pinkerpv V.I.P. Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Alabama Posts: 61	Re: AK 47 FTE, wobbly bolt Helix, JLA; Thanks for the response. On really close examination and comparison of the two bolts, the lugs on the WSAR AK are a little worn and are not as beefy as the one from my SAR. Checked out Brownells. Do you think there might be a headspace pbm with new bolt?

02-24-2011, 10:58 AM	#5
Helix_FR TFF Moderator/Host Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Imperial, MO Posts: 3,624	Re: AK 47 FTE, wobbly bolt Headspace? on a AK? they do that? Haven't had a problem yet. That's why I said new. Used bolt could do the same thing your experiencing now also headspace issues. New bolt you won't run into that. __________________ Only cowards shoot with their eyes closed.... helixgunsmith.com

02-25-2011, 07:54 AM	#6
pinkerpv V.I.P. Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Alabama Posts: 61	Re: AK 47 FTE, wobbly bolt Helix, thanks. Didn't think H/S was a pbm, but heard it on another forum.

02-28-2011, 12:33 PM	#7
pinkerpv V.I.P. Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Alabama Posts: 61	Re: AK 47 FTE, wobbly bolt I took measurements with a caliper on the WSAR and then compared the measurements to the SAR. The gap between the WASR rails just above the ejector was 1.000 in and the gap between the ejector and opposite rail is .517 in. The gap on the SAR was .984 and .497 respectively. So the gap on the WSAR is larger than on the SAR. I have included a picture of the two receivers with ejectors side by side. WSAR is on the right. Note dimple on SAR on left. SAR appears to have more robust Ejector. At a gun show this past weekend I found a guy selling AK parts and discussed it with him. He was pretty convinced that the bolt was not the problem; however he did try another bolt in the carrier and saw that it was a better fit. He still suggested before I buy another bolt and/or carrier, I try to close the gap between the rails and the ejector. Any other suggestions. Attached Images

02-28-2011, 09:14 PM	#9
JLA TFF Moderator/Host Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Heart Of Texas Contributor Posts: 17,320	Re: AK 47 FTE, wobbly bolt I very much agree with Helix on this one. Parts swappers claiming to be smiths give smiths a bad rep. They need a good ol fashined texas sized ass beating IMO!!! __________________ It takes 43 muscles to frown, 17 to smile, and 3 for proper trigger squeeze. The latest caliber or gear is no substitute for experience and skill. Rifles and cartridges don't make hits -- shooters do. Fact of life: After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says WTF!

02-28-2011, 11:45 PM	#10
sniper69 Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Sunny Alabama, GOD Bless America! Posts: 43	Re: AK 47 FTE, wobbly bolt If swapping out the bolt in an AK for another one, head space should be checked. Even if the replacement bolt is new. SAAMI gages might not be 100%, but the CIP gages should work fine.

03-03-2011, 08:41 AM	#11
pinkerpv V.I.P. Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Alabama Posts: 61	Re: AK 47 FTE, wobbly bolt Thanks for all the info. Here is what I have done so far. I closed the distance a few 1000s on the WASR receiver. This made the gap between the ejector and the receiver rail smaller, about the same as the SAR. At the range yesterday I fired the WSAR and managed to get about 10 rnds off before the FTE. I then swapped the bolts and carriers between the WSAR and SAR and guess what. No FTEs in about 50 rds. I did have one FTE in the SAR with the other bolt in about 50 rds. I’m going to replace the bolt with a new one. I'll have to find the gauges to check the head space.

03-03-2011, 10:47 AM	#12
Jim Hauff Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Lehigh Valley, PA Posts: 2,980	Re: AK 47 FTE, wobbly bolt pinkerpv, Try this site for gauges: http://ak-builder.com/index.php?disp...ategory_id=208 __________________ Jim Hauff ~ H&R Collector In Memory of Bill Goforth and Jim Ritchie

03-03-2011, 11:45 AM	#14
Helix_FR TFF Moderator/Host Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Imperial, MO Posts: 3,624	Re: AK 47 FTE, wobbly bolt Though I know the point of checking head space, but do you actually think that these piece mealed, duct taped, wire wrapped, 2x4 for a stock AK's used in the middle east ever seen the likes of a headspace gauge? Doubtful __________________ Only cowards shoot with their eyes closed.... helixgunsmith.com

03-05-2011, 10:04 AM	#15
pinkerpv V.I.P. Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Alabama Posts: 61	Re: AK 47 FTE, wobbly bolt Double D; I can appreciate your comments. I asked for help/info on other forums as well as this one. I also read several articles. The timing of my request for info and the responses don't always coincide. But I do take all the info into consideration and make a decision with that available info on what to do. Later responses with info may alter my decision on what to do. Also its sometimes hard to determine the level of expertise in the response. Usually its done by my familiarity with the issue, the wording in the response, number of posts and previous post by responders and my gut. I don't want to take someone's post and act on it and then blame them for poor results, so i make my own decision as to what to do and then I blame only myself. I do agree with you that it may be confusing for someone reading the thread. This works for me. There are many posters with much expertise and I have learned a great deal form many of them. And I do appreciate everyone's responses to my questions and requests for help. Helix FR; I agree with you in a way; however, you wont believe how many people on other forums talk about checking head space. Even Sniper 69 above. As I mentioned above in an earlier post, I measured the distance between the rails and also between the ejector and opposite rail with a digital caliper. Then using a rubber mallet(in finest AK fashion) I hit the receiver side several times and rechecked distance. This is the method a gunsmith told me about. After all many AK receivers are made from flat blanks this way. After closing the distance some and measuring along the receiver with calipers, i went to the range and fired the WSAR getting the same results of 10 rnds fired and then a failure to Eject. That's when I swapped bolts and decided that maybe a new bolt was the key. BTW, before swapping bolts in the field, I had checked them first at home , even chambering a spent casing and a cartridge to ensure the bolt lugs locked up and observing distance from the bolt face to chamber. Crude, I know but the best I could do. After the range time, at home in my shop I checked the distance with the caliper and found that the distance had not opened up with the firing. So I continued striking the sides of the receiver until the rail and ejector distance were the exact same as the SAR. I have not refired the WSAR yet, but am interested in seeing if this corrects the problem. If my methods offend or confuse, I am sorry. I am not intending that.

03-06-2011, 01:59 PM	#16
Double D TFF Moderator/Host Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: North Florida Contributor Posts: 8,079	Re: AK 47 FTE, wobbly bolt No problem, thanks for the explanation. Cheers..... __________________ I own a bunch of scary guns. You want em? Come and take em..... Liberalism is a serious, non curable, mental disorder... NRA LIFE MEMBER Oath Keepers Member NRA Certified Instructor 30 Yr CC permit holder.

03-12-2011, 09:13 AM	#17
pinkerpv V.I.P. Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Alabama Posts: 61	Re: AK 47 FTE, wobbly bolt Last week after the poor range showing, I closed the gap between the ejector and opposite rail to exact dimensions of the SAR. Tested it at home ejecting rounds. Everything was OK. Yesterday I took the WSAR to the range and fired 3 magazines in rapid succession. Not a single Failure to eject. At home I measured the gap between the ejector rail and the opposite side. The distance was .497 in. Same as the SAR. It had not moved any in the range firing. Sooo I believe I have solved the Failure to eject problem. Note: the WSAR receiver and ejector is not as robust as the SAR. I will continue to watch this to ensure the rails don't creep. the Gunsmith guy at the gunshow told me the receiver was "sprung" and suggested the procedure below. BTW, my method of adjusting the distance between the rails was by a rubber mallet. Lay the WSAR on it side on a piece of thick cardboard over sturdy table. Using a rubber mallet in finest gun smith tradition, strike the side of the AK fairly hard, then check the results using digital calipers. Repeat the process varying the strike location for more consistent shaping until desired closure distance is achieved. Test process by firing gun.

09-18-2011, 10:30 AM	#18
warriflefan V.I.P. Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Meadow Vista, CA Posts: 239	Re: AK 47 FTE, wobbly bolt Headspace could be kinda important with a stamped receiver. You could probably get a set from brownells for 60 bucks. __________________ "Americans have the right and advantage of being armed - unlike the citizens of other countries whose governments are afraid to trust the people with arms." (James Madison, The Federalist Papers #46 at 243-244) "I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." (Thomas Jefferson)

09-20-2011, 10:40 AM	#19
45Auto Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 1,121	Re: AK 47 FTE, wobbly bolt I never had a problem with an AK (knock on wood), and so I have no experience with anything but basic maintenance of the mechanism. For future referance, how good is parts interchageability in the AK family? For example, if you have one from Romania, would Yugoslav, Russian and Chinese parts work in it?