muzzleloading shotgun identify

[bassj2]

Hello all, I'm new to this site so I hope I'm doing this right. Anyway, I wanted to know if anyone would be able to help me identify this muzzleloading shotgun. I got this a couple of years ago at an auction (where I was told it was a 20 guage) and hoped I could use it to do a little rabbit hunting. Well, it set in the safe for a while and I'm just getting back to it and I know better than to shot it untill I know a few things about it. Identifying it seems to be the place to start. Any help would be great. I do intend to bring it to a gun smith before I take it out but I wanted to know what you guys had to say.

[BETH]

just wanted to welcome u to the forum i am sure someone will be along to help, its sure purdy

[bassj2]

Thanks for the welcome Beth. It seems there are a lot of knowledgeable people here. I'm sure someone can at least point me in the right direction.

[BETH]

sometimes there are a lot of people online sometimes not but there has not been many guns that they could not figure out

[armedandsafe]

You might want to also post this in the blackpowder sub-forum, if you haven't already. Between the two places you are pretty sure to get some answers.

Pops

[redwing carson]

The gun is marked 13.8 MM which is .540 cal. the 28 ga runs around .550 cal. the 20 ga. runs .620 cal. The gun bears the Mirokue mfg stamp. made in Japan. These were cheap imported guns from 1960s and 70s. These guns are not very strong in the breech and nipple area. If you are not familer with BP arms have this gun checked out before you shoot it.

RC

[bassj2]

Ok, thanks for the info R.C. I'm not sure if you could see or not but on the top of the tube is stamped "Made in Spain". Is this for real? Whats that about?

[polishshooter]

Before shooting it "for real" I would try the "Dixie Gun Works" "Proof Testing for Old Muzzleloaders" test which they illustrate in their technical section in the back of their catalog, which I always thought was STUPID since if the test does it's job and the charge DOES blow up the gun, you have WRECKED your gun, RIGHT?

Until I bought my first old used non-descript Muzzleloader of questionable parentage and was scared of firing it so I did it and it came through with flying colors, so I was NEVER again afraid of firing it with my "normal" loads.

The method is similar to my "Polsih Headspace test" I have done a hundred times with old Mosins I had rebuilt.

First, determine the load you plan to shoot, then load DOUBLE the amount with TWICE the projectiles or load, securely attach it to an old tire with bungee cords, tie a LONG string to the trigger, 20 to 40 feet long, prime the nipple or pan, then go back to the END of the string, take cover if it makes you feel good, and pull the string!

IF it goes boom and does NOT come apart, THEN inspect it with a magnifying glass for ANYTHING that looks wrong, bulges, cracks, anything!

If you find ANYTHING wrong, STOP. If you are like me. Polish and possibly stupid, or a glutton for punishment, or disappointed nothing blew up and decided you don't believe the test do it AGAIN. What the heck, you ALREADY have the set up, it would be a shame to tear it down NOW.


IF it survives, you can then happily blaze away with whatever normal loads you want to shoot, knowing it can handle it.

I never quite figured out the alternative, if it blows up, but I guess while you are out the money you paid for it, the fact that it didn't blow up with you wrapped around it is PRICELESS, right?

[bassj2]

hahaha.....you're funny man. thanks for the advise. I'm gonna try that. I only have untill the end of the month to rabbit hunt so I'll do it soon. I'll only be out about $75 if the test does work, Right now its hanging on the wall above some antler mounts, so if it blows up I'll just stick the remains back on the wall.

[Jim K]

The gun is Spanish, not Japanese. It has the Eibar proof mark and the definitive BLACK powder proof (the "cannonballs"). So it is to be used only with black powder.

I see no reason for concern about safety or any reason to run your own proof tests or to blow up the gun for the fun of it.

Polishshooter, a proof test is not "stupid"; it is intended to "prove" the safety of the gun. If the gun fails, it was defective and could have blown up in use and injured the shooter. The U.S. has no law requiring proving of firearms, but all reputable American manufacturers proof test every gun they make with an overload.

Jim

[polishshooter]

Jim, I understand that.

What I thought was stupid, of course until I TRIED it was the first time I read about DGW's recommended "Proof Test" in the back of their catalog!

The FIRST time I read about it about 20-25 catalogs ago, I thought it was some kind of JOKE, I mean, who would RISK blowing up a valuable old antique firearm in a test that is only 'Pass/Fail!" LOL

But since then over the years I have dealt with DGW a lot, and talked to a lot of their reps in Friendship and in their shop in Union City, and it turns out that they are swamped ALL the time with questions from people who have "found" or inherited old antique BP firearms from relatives who have died and this is EXACTLY what they advise them to do if they intend to shoot it, ESPECIALLY since there are so many handmade, and "one of a kind" weapons out there made by obscure or little known smiths and manufacturers in the 18th and 19th centuries, much less foreign repro ones in the past 50-100 years.

But the OTHER thing they tell me is that it is very RARE for them to hear of ANY firearm FAILING the test if it was done properly, unless the "intended load" that was "doubled" was so out of whack in the first place. OR else the owner stupidly used smokeless powder instead of BP!

Black powder is really a predictable low pressure explosive if used in amounts that are used in small arms (Cannon sized charges especially in brass, bronze or cast iron cannons are a different matter!) contained in a small well constructed solid breech and the charge is reasonable for the caliber.

Their method DEFINITELY removes any doubt about whether you can trust your BP firearm every time you shoot it, of course, if it PASSES.

[polishshooter]

The other thing with muzzleloading shotguns is you are MUCH safer with a single barrel than a double.

Double barrel muzzleloading shotguns can and DO blow up, if not loaded JUST right.

If not loaded properly, with the right components and wads, when the FIRST barrel is fired the recoil CAN make the second load move in the tube, allowing a void or air space to form between the charge and the "ejecta." When the second charge is fired the air space will make the explosion generate a lot more force than normal that can burst the normally thinner shotgun barrel and chamber walls (compared to rifles.)

That was always a BIG concern in the old days of expensive custom double barrel flintlock and later percussion doubles. In fact, I have read that it was recommended to use the ramrod to insure the second load was still tight against the charge after discharging the first barrel, which always seemed to me to defeat the purpose of having a double barrel in the first place.

[kentuckyrifleman]

On the other hand, a blown up gun is a lot more interesting to hang up for a "conversation piece." A lot more interesting if it does not have bloodstains on it!

[M1tankgod]

so thats what they look like new ?

I have one of these been shooting it for close to 30 years now on and off,

I have never really gotten wads for it as it is a novelty for me
have used it to break a few birds on the trap field

I load mine with a empty 45acp case full of GOEX 2f (seems thats about 20-25 grains if I recall) then wad up some paper and to go on top of the powder then the shell full of shot and more paper

I guess if you wanted wads for it you could go to circle fly, I just never shot mine enough to get them

it does recoil quite a bit for such a little gun, great for bunnies

have your smith check it out , good luck be safe

[45Auto]

Well, it's not all that old. Maybe 1960's or 70's. I don't know how good modern Spanish proof testing is, but I would suppose it's sufficient.

To be on the safe side, I like to unscrew the breach plug and have a look at the tube. Not so easy with most antiques, but should be easy enough with a new gun.

I like the Dixie Gunworks catalog which has instructions for loading muzzle loading shotguns.

The worst problem with cheap Spanish muzzle loading guns is the soft metal in the working parts. For this reason, many modern made Spanish locks tend to fail early. I would also want to see if the barrel is straight or slightly bent off center, which will effect accuracy.

[ppduss]

Is that a sea shell on the golden crest ?

[Hawg]

You really do not want to remove the breech plug. When you put it back it may not line up right. Use a bore light and if it's not badly pitted it should be good to go. Like was said the Spanish guns aren't very good quality and parts may wear out fast but for the money you have in it enjoy it for as long as it lasts and then hang it up.

[RocklockI]

No do not remove the breech plug . That is a Spanish made 'export gun' mostly for the South Americans . They are used for collecting bird feathers ,and as monkey guns .

That is a grease hole in the butt , but I havnt seen one with the shell cover .

If you ever want to sell it I would like to here from you as I collect guns made for native populations . Mostly used in the 50's and 60s .

Gary