Help on old Bowie knife ??

[ozo]

I just hate it when the argumentative attitude creeps into a thread.
It never helps anything, usually hinders the progress, and it sucks.
FatCat, I really like the knife. I like knives. I would like to have yours,
as MamaOzo says, I'm a knife hoarder. I don't care about value as much
as I care whether I like something. I am glad when anyone does exhaustive homework on anything close to them that they care about, it shows character.
I'm not a knife oficianado, but I am an old fart that has been around. The first thought I had on this subject were the handle rivets were modern [first pics].
I didn't care, I like it. It is a nice, simple Bowie.
When DeBill chimed in with his first post I knew his advice was more than worthy. It was enough for me. I am surprised that you do not know who Bill is.
Maybe I am biased, I've been in DeBill's (old) shop many times. He too is an old fart, and I have seen him grumpy, but I trust his cutlery knowledge.
This rant is not directed towards anyone, but to everyone........I hate to see a thread hi-jack itself with negative arguing and attitudes. I read this years ago........'it's not what we put in our mouth that defiles us, but what comes out of our mouths'.......

[OneFatCat]

Originally Posted by ozo

I just hate it when the argumentative attitude creeps into a thread.
It never helps anything, usually hinders the progress, and it sucks.
FatCat, I really like the knife. I like knives. I would like to have yours,
as MamaOzo says, I'm a knife hoarder. I don't care about value as much
as I care whether I like something. I am glad when anyone does exhaustive homework on anything close to them that they care about, it shows character.
I'm not a knife oficianado, but I am an old fart that has been around. The first thought I had on this subject were the handle rivets were modern [first pics].
I didn't care, I like it. It is a nice, simple Bowie.
When DeBill chimed in with his first post I knew his advice was more than worthy. It was enough for me. I am surprised that you do not know who Bill is.
Maybe I am biased, I've been in DeBill's (old) shop many times. He too is an old fart, and I have seen him grumpy, but I trust his cutlery knowledge.
This rant is not directed towards anyone, but to everyone........I hate to see a thread hi-jack itself with negative arguing and attitudes. I read this years ago........'it's not what we put in our mouth that defiles us, but what comes out of our mouths'.......

Well Ozo Im sure they are very capliable in their field and just becasue Ive never heard of them means very little because Im not a knife guy..ive been in the Harley business for a long time and Im sure Bill has never heard of me either unless he happens to work for Harley .. ..so that is no slam on them or their expertise ...but seeing how it is my knife I would just like to be 100 % convinced either way ..even if Col. Myer were to say he thinks it is genuine I will be compelled to continue to have it checked just because some have said they think its a fake ... that is unless YOU want to buy it from me and in that case YOU can do all the work LOL ...PM me if you want it ....

OFC

[Hawg]

You're willing to pretty much take the word of one guy you don't know because somebody on another forum said he was the expert to go to but you wont take the word of two people that come highly recommended from several others?

[OneFatCat]

Quite the contrary Hawg if I were willing to take the word of just anyone this thread would have been done on the first page
OFC

[Hawg]

Originally Posted by OneFatCat

Quite the contrary Hawg if I were willing to take the word of just anyone this thread would have been done on the first page
OFC

Or four forums ago.

[Buffalochip]

Here is some fuel for the fire you guys are fanning. Three original bowie knives from the Antique Bowie Knife Book. They look strikingly similar in style
to the knife questioned in this forum.

[woolleyworm]

Originally Posted by Buffalochip

Here is some fuel for the fire you guys are fanning. Three original bowie knives from the Antique Bowie Knife Book. They look strikingly similar in style
to the knife questioned in this forum.

????? not to be too harsh, but that's just stretching the imagination a bit too far; these knives are night and day different in almost every way.

[Bill DeShivs]

All of them have blades. And handles!
Other than that, they have about as much similarity as a dump truck and a Ferrari.

[Buffalochip]

"Different n almost every way" except that the shapes of the blades are quite similar--and that is the question here. Similar enough to suggest that a period knifemaker could have come up with the variation in question. To say that there is "as much similarity as a dump truck and a Ferrari' smacks of the absurd. The handles are quite different, yes, but then one wouldn't expect coffin shaped ivory handles on a piece built during an underfunded war effort. But none of us REALLY know do we? It will be interesting to see what the real expert says...

[Bill DeShivs]

Yes, some of us know.
The thinly veiled insult is noted.

[OneFatCat]

Well Im not ignoring my promise to post something as soon as I hear and of yet Ive not heard back from Col. Myer ...maybe he is laughing so hard he cant see to make the call from all the tears in his eyes... but all this talk about dump trucks and Ferrari's is sure killing my groove! Thank you Buff. for the research and taking some of the heat off of me !

OFC

[stede]

Guys... we all seem to be collectors- and in Bill's case, a maker (of fine knives)- is it really necessary to devolve this thread to insinuations and accusations? Do you (we) really have nothing better to do than denigrate each other's knowledge and intentions? The issue of genuine/ reproduction/ fake will always be ongoing; let us be civil in engaging our peers, eh? I know from experience the desire to believe a found piece is special or valuable- I have sometimes been mistaken but have also scored nice pieces for my own collection when others overlooked or discounted the provenance of a blade.
In any case, let us not be rude or dismissive to others- is that too much to ask?

[OneFatCat]

Et tu Brute

[OneFatCat]

Ok here is an update ..sorta ...Col. Myer called me today after looking at the pictures that I sent him ...he says he would like for me to take a candle, lite it and use it to darken the stamp on both sides ...then take a piece of scotch tape and remove the impression, put the impression on a white index card and send it to him ...he says the stamps seem to be very close to original but he does have a little concern and would like to see this before he gives an opinion. I offered to send the knife to him BUT he said he really does not need to see the knife just a clearer picture of the stamps so I will do this tonight and get it into the mail to him tomorrow...it still might turn out to be a replica BUT at least he didnt call it a fake by simply glancing at a picture or two...so this saga goes on, and on and on ....

OFC

OFC

[Bill DeShivs]

The good colonel apparently doesn't know anything about knives. Ask him to come up with another knife like yours. Anyone who only reads what stampings say can not possibly be an expert. ANY stamp can be duplicated easily-especially with modern CNC machinery. Even broken or worn out stamps can be made exactly.

[OneFatCat]

Bill I got a better idea ..what dont YOU call and tell him you can find his address and phone number in the back of the book he wrote on the subject (William Glaze and the Palmetto Armory
Jack Allen Meyer Author )
and when you call him maybe you can tell him all about YOU and the book YOU wrote.

[Bill DeShivs]

OFC,
I i took an old Plymouth and put Chevy name tags on it, would it be a Chevy?
Let's see, about my credentials:
I have written literally dozens of cutlery magazine articles (the first around 1974,)I had an online cutlery magazine for a couple of years (The Autoknife Collector,)i have about a half-dozen Internet knife collector's forums, I have a few knife designs in production (Google "Leverletto,") am an authorized repair station for several major knife companies (Latama, Maro Mario, Colonial, Hubertus, Kuno Ritter, and Grafrath.) I'm recognized by the Federal government as an expert cutlery witness. I can't think of much else, off the top of my head.
Nope, I didn't write any books, though!
BTW, if books are what makes credentials, Levine has written quite a few knife books. I even have 3 or 4 of his around here!

[OneFatCat]

Hey Bill its not me you have to try and impress with your credentials ..as I said ealier Im sure you know your field ...your the one who made reference to Col. Myers qualifications and I just pointed out you could call him yourself and tell him what you think of him and his book instead of having ME relay the message ...

OFC

[Buffalochip]

Interesting--apparently the good Colonel doesn't have a problem with the shape of the blade. A quick Google search shows Colonel Meyer has published at least 6 books of historical nature dating back to 1978 (available in hardback)--a learned scholar it seems.... The curator at the Museum of the Confederacy in Richmond is quite responsive--his opinion might be worth seeking. Again, Confederate items are much more likley to be counterfeit--particulary when marked CS or CSA, but WHY would a counterfeiter research stampings without researching the blade shape--doesn't make sense.

[Bill DeShivs]

Since CW weaponry manufacturing so haphazard and scattered, it's very difficult to prove or disprove many items. This is a real boon for fakers-many of whom are civil war dealers. You take a flat piece of steel, grind it to "the" (wrong) bowie knife shape, put a rudimentary bevel on it with a grinder, and take it out in the back yard, pee on it, and leave it for a couple of weeks. Then, you make a crude guard out of iron or brass, stick some crude handles on it, assemble it with rivets of iron, brass, or copper, beat the handle up a little-and you have a "genuine civil war bowie!" Hard to prove, one way or the other-unless you actually know how cutlery of the period was actually made. Greedy people buy them in droves, thinking they got a great deal. After all, it looks right (shaped like all the other "bowie knives" they've seen,) its crude (which must mean it's old,) and it's rusty (which also means it's old.) All these [perceptions are wrong.
People expect a "bowie knife" to look like OFC's, when in fact, they didn't. The earliest form of OFC's knife pattern became available in the late 1800s. They are called "bowie hunters."
The design was further bastardized in the late 1950s.
The knowledge I'm attempting to convey was gained through many years of study by specialists in the cutlery field, not "historians" or civil war dealers-most of whom couldn't tell you the processes of making a piece of cutlery.

[Bill DeShivs]

OFC,
BTW, the knife in post #40 is a modern custom made knife.

[Bill DeShivs]

And, in case my intentions are misunderstood:
The reason I'm pursuing this subject is so that all you gun guys can learn some things about knives, and about fakes.

Many, many times I have had to tell people that the Italian stiletto that Granddad took off a Nazi general in WW2 wasn't even made until 1960! or, the genuine WW2 paratrooper knife that wasn't made until 1967, etc.
Well, calling Grampa and Dad liars, fools, or just forgetful-doesn't sit well with folks.
BUT THE FACT REMAINS THAT IT WAS IMPOSSIBLE!
These are similar to the attitudes in this thread.

After all, any red blooded guy knows what a bowie knife looks like, right?
And, if you tell him he's wrong, he gets offended. But, guess what-he's still wrong.

[OneFatCat]

Originally Posted by Buffalochip

Interesting--apparently the good Colonel doesn't have a problem with the shape of the blade. A quick Google search shows Colonel Meyer has published at least 6 books of historical nature dating back to 1978 (available in hardback)--a learned scholar it seems.... The curator at the Museum of the Confederacy in Richmond is quite responsive--his opinion might be worth seeking. Again, Confederate items are much more likley to be counterfeit--particulary when marked CS or CSA, but WHY would a counterfeiter research stampings without researching the blade shape--doesn't make sense.

BC that has been my contention all along ...like Bill and a few others have said it my not even be 20 years old BUT why if your going to go through the hassle of couterfeiting a knife with the idea as passing it off as the real thing for a big profit wouldnt you do it with the right style of blade? I would think if most are like me they have never even heard of W. Glaze and Co. ..and if I were at a gun and knife show and saw this knife for $1000.00 it wouldnt be the name that sold me ...the name most likely would only bring the attention of an avid knife collector and he would be able to quiclky tell its a fake because of the blade being wrong so who would be the market for the counterfeter? As you said BC just doesnt make lot of sense ...

OFC

[OneFatCat]

Originally Posted by Bill DeShivs

OFC,
BTW, the knife in post #40 is a modern custom made knife.

Bill your right that is a modern made knife but according the the maker it is a replica of a civil war period knife and I thought the blade shape was simular to the knife I have ...here is the link to the web site I found the picture on ...

http://www.idahoknifeworks.com/bowie.htm

OFC

[Bill DeShivs]

OFC-
You just made my point. "According to the maker."
There is only one knife on his site that even comes close to being a correct interpretation of a bowie knife-and it's not the one in post 40. People want their bowie knives to look like bowie knives. Even if they don't know what a bowie knife really looks like.