Help on old Bowie knife ??

[SARG]

I am no expert about anything ..... but I imagine that an original era Bowie with original stamping could have been modified at some point over the last 150 years.

And from an "outsiders" viewpoint looking in ....... the pissy back and forth ..... amongst those who believe they are "in the know" .... certainly tarnishes reputations.

[OneFatCat]

Sarge that is an excellent point ...I think in the end that if nothing else MAYBE we ALL have learned a little something by this thread ...I know I have

OFC

[hunter29180]

just wondering..any more info on this knife??

[hunter29180]

Originally Posted by Bill DeShivs

It's true. There's nothing rude about that!
Guys, this knife as been debunked by Bernard Levine. Bernard (and I) are considered expert cutlery witnesses in courts of law. Bernard IS the world's foremost expert on Bowie knives.
I wish OFC's knife were genuine. I really do. But, it's simply not.

bill, i dont know you or Bernard, i do know Bernards rep though as he is mentioned on Wikipedia in the history of the Bowie knife.
"Noted knife expert Bernard Levine has reported that the first known Bowie knife showed a strong Mediterranean influence insofar as general lines were concerned. This would have involved the single, principal cutting edge, regardless of the false edge's existence or not. It is noted that in the Old West many "Bowie knives" were made that in fact did not show Mediterranean influence, but were just large knives, often with two full edges.[6]"

but in you statement that Bernard has stated his opinion on this knife? i cant find that opinion...

i dont think the knife real either butt....stranger things have happenrd!!

ONE FAT CAT.. you dont have to yell, to get you point across... it just escalated the problem.."you and Bill disagree"...thats life..by your own words you are not a "expert" Bill seems to be...at least i can find referances to his qualifications..

so lets see what the Col. has to say then i suggest you contact ths Arkansas muesum of history as they seem to be the top dogs on authinicating the "Bowie" knifes both pre and post war?

[SARG]

Information from the web for the rest of the novices like myself:

Bowie knife by Jim Bowie

Jim Bowie and the Bowie knife have almost become synonymous. In the early 1800's it was common place for men to carry a knife as a sidearm but it wasn't until 1830 that the famous Bowie knife was made that forever carved a niche in history for Jim Bowie

The actual making of the Bowie knife was a progression of knife designs. The first knife was claimed to be designed by his brother Rezin in Avoyelles Parish in Louisiana and made by a blacksmith Jesse Clift in order to protect his younger brother from some of the company he was keeping

This knife was referred to by many as Bowie's butcher knife that was used at the Sandbar Fight. Another rendition of the story according to Jim's older brother John was that a blacksmith named Snowden, made a hunting knife for Jim which was used during the duel. Either way the prototype and the legend had begun

In 1827 the famous duel occurred across from Natchez, Mississippi on a Mississippi River sandbar. As a second in the duel, Bowie found himself in the middle of the ruckus armed with a butcher knife. In the events that followed Bowie found himself badly beaten, shot and stabbed but before him laid one man cut to ribbons and another one disemboweled

In 1830 in Texas, Jim Bowie armed with the famous Bowie knife made by James Black, was attacked by three men hired to kill him. The stories flourished as Bowie wielded the heavy knife against his attackers. In the end, one man was almost beheaded, another was disemboweled and the third had his skull split open

The original Bowie knife was two inches wide and a quarter inch thick with the blade being about 12 inches long. The back of the blade had a soft metal inlaid to catch the opponent's blade during a scrape. Razor sharp was the top edge of the clip point. In order to protect the hand a brass quillon was in place

At the Alamo, Jim Bowie had his trusted Bowie knife. As the Alamo was overrun by the Mexican army, Jim Bowie laid on a cot in the Low Barracks with his Bowie knife and pistol at hand. Tales exist that before he was killed that he took out nine of the oncoming soldiers

In the end, the bowie knife lost the capital B but its' fame has continued to grow. The original Bowie knife was never found

[OneFatCat]

Originally Posted by hunter29180

bill, i dont know you or Bernard, i do know Bernards rep though as he is mentioned on Wikipedia in the history of the Bowie knife.
"Noted knife expert Bernard Levine has reported that the first known Bowie knife showed a strong Mediterranean influence insofar as general lines were concerned. This would have involved the single, principal cutting edge, regardless of the false edge's existence or not. It is noted that in the Old West many "Bowie knives" were made that in fact did not show Mediterranean influence, but were just large knives, often with two full edges.[6]"

but in you statement that Bernard has stated his opinion on this knife? i cant find that opinion...

i dont think the knife real either butt....stranger things have happenrd!!

ONE FAT CAT.. you dont have to yell, to get you point across... it just escalated the problem.."you and Bill disagree"...thats life..by your own words you are not a "expert" Bill seems to be...at least i can find referances to his qualifications..

so lets see what the Col. has to say then i suggest you contact ths Arkansas muesum of history as they seem to be the top dogs on authinicating the "Bowie" knifes both pre and post war?

Sorry I must have had my volume down and did not realize I was yelling ..on the other hand if your referring to where I used cap letters it was to emphasise ...and to Bills credit he is referring to Mr. Levine's reply on another thread where he did indeed say it was his opinion that the knife was a replica ...as for MY (put your fingers in your ears) qualifications I never said I had any ...if you have found where I boasted to have an expertise in this area please point it out to me ...

OFC

OFC

[Bill DeShivs]

The original knife has probably been found. It was given by Bowie himself to actor Edwin Forrest. Google "Forrest bowie knife." It basically is a large butcher knife.
There are several knives (authenticated) given by Rezin Bowie to friends. They were made by different cutlers, and were of different designs.
The "inlaid backstrap" fallacy came about from Raymond Thorpe's "Iron Mistress" book, as did many of the other fabrications.

[SARG]

Must also be gospel from the internet.

Edwin Forrest Knife

Said to have been presented to the famous actor Edwin Forrest by James Bowie. It is reputed to be the knife Bowie used on the Vidalia Sandbar.

(*Crap.......... I'm as bad as the others* * I remember Dad used to say 45 years ago..."If it doesn't change supper .. let it go"* )

[hunter29180]

Originally Posted by OneFatCat

Sorry I must have had my volume down and did not realize I was yelling ..on the other hand if your referring to where I used cap letters it was to emphasise ...and to Bills credit he is referring to Mr. Levine's reply on another thread where he did indeed say it was his opinion that the knife was a replica ...as for MY (put your fingers in your ears) qualifications I never said I had any ...if you have found where I boasted to have an expertise in this area please point it out to me ...

OFC

OFC

OFC..you are forgiven...i will apolizise to you as i was not trying to tick you off.. actually was referring to the all BOLD as that also is a form of yelling..thanks for the info on Mr. Levine...the way it was posted made it seem to me at least, the response was in this thread..not on another site..as to your qualifications..well i was just agreeing with you that you had pointed out you lack of qualifications, but sweemed to be unable to verify Bill's or Mr, Levine's..and i did suggest to wait to see what the Col. has to say and then perhaps to pursue it further with the muesum..

[Buffalochip]

Would one of the expert please point out for all: 1. how does the blade in question differ from mid 19th century knives--point by point? 2. How long was W. Glaze and Co. in business? Is it possible that this is a post Civil War bowie by that company. I've heard a lot of opinions but very few details to back them up. We could ALL learn from them.

[Bill DeShivs]

Genuine knives usually had a full grind on the blades-not the 1/4 "bench grinder" grind on OFC's. Fittings were usually nickel silver. Most originals did not have the radical clip point as on OFC's.
See how OFC's blade tapers toward the handle? That's wrong, too.

[OneFatCat]

Bill it does not seem to me your saying all but some or most does that mean that there could be a chance in your mind that it is of the period? When you say "usually" or "most" it appears you are hedging your bet ...

OFC

[ozo]

Originally Posted by OneFatCat

Bill it does not seem to me your saying all but some or most does that mean that there could be a chance in your mind that it is of the period? When you say "usually" or "most" it appears you are hedging your bet ...

OFC

I'm becoming less and less fond of this knife as this thread digresses.
As a member on the great TFF, all are entitled to my latest opinion, and I won't even charge for it !
Fatcat, these words of yours contained in this quote are a slam, albeit a feeble attempt at intellectuality. You have repeatedly cast stones at Bill. That is not how adults conduct civil conversation. This forum is saturated with incredible, well-informed, educated, and experienced minds that are also polite and courteous as they generously share with any and all. In your manner of speaking you degrade and belittle the entire forum and everyone on it. It is not what you say, it is how you say it. Confused ? Go back to the beginning of this thread and re-read it, and pay close attention to HOW you made your replies. If you don't get it still, then I do.
No response or reply needed.

[Buffalochip]

Ozo, I find OneFatCats' remarks quite reasonable. OFC is correct in questioning the experts--in collecting items from the 19th century there are few absolutes in design, whether you are talking about firearms, furniture, jewelry, or cutlery. Questioning is how we learn.

Items were often hand made, differed by region, and era of styles often overlapped. I've collected and sold antiques for decades and experts seldom speak in absolutes because at times they can and are wrong. I doubt that Bill will tell you he is ALWAYS right. Now that he has explained his thinking, I find his concerns laudable A tinder pistol sold on ebay last week for several hundred dollars. I contacted the seller and informed him that it was a reproduction, made in Italy for Navy Arms and currently sold by Dixie Gunworks in kit form for $75.00 . After arguing with him I realized he honestly thought it original, despite the rasp marks on the handle.http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...K%3AMEWAX%3AIT
I collect tinder pistols and I KNOW it is not. But, without it in hand, there is a slight possibilty (5%) that I am wrong...

[OneFatCat]

Ozo my last post was a question not a "slam" ...it was a question based on the words used in Bill's post ...I was asking if that by using the words such as "most, usually" meant that there was a chance that in his expert opionion that a blade like this might have been made back in mid 1850's ....I have been some what facetious in a couple of my replies but only after I felt that I was reciving the same ...in this post it was just an honest qeestion based on the wording I thought he might be having second thoughts

OFC

[ozo]

THIS CS SWORD AND SCABBARD HAVE BEEN AGED AND MARKED LIKE A TYPE OF SWORD USED IN THE CIVIL WAR. IT IS MARKED "WM GLAZE, COLUMBIA, SC" ON ONE SIDE AND "CS 1862" ON THE OTHER. THE MARKINGS ARE FAINT ON BOTH SIDES

The above is a description of an item to be sold [Worthopedia]

Pics below of some Glaze Armory stamps

[ozo]

Ya did not read #88..........either of you.

" It is not what you say, it is how you say it."---ozo

" If you don't get it still, then I do."---ozo

[ozo]

Originally Posted by OneFatCat

Ozo my last post was a question not a "slam" ...it was a question based on the words used in Bill's post ...I was asking if that by using the words such as "most, usually" menat that there was a chance that in his expert opionion that a blade like this might have been made back in mid 1850's ....I have been some what facetious in a couple of my replies but only after I felt that I was reciving the same ...in this post it was just an honest qeestion based on the wording I thought he might be having second thoughts

OFC

Why are you still yelling ???

[ozo]

Another Glaze stamp

[ozo]

The Edwin Forrest Bowie

[hunter29180]

Ozo, while i get what you are getting at, i would draw your attention to the photos you posted #91 & #94, note the letter A? in post 20 the a was cursive? as in "a".
not sure if bill agreeded that these were in fact correct...for the maker and period that is. so while copys abound can there be found copies with the same lettering? perhaps bill would have a few, i figure hes seen a few and maybe has a photo stashed away hes forgot about..

meanwhile OFC.. yes you manner of responding is somewhat ...blunt? and very snide at times, no one has yet to address you in the manner you have addressed some of our most valued members. yes, it just the way you are..i'm the same way..so i know i have to watch my responces..as i apolizied to you when my method seemed to be wrong..so we ask you to try to be a little more "laid back" "toned down" and just a really "cool" if Fat Cat!!

cheers still waiting on the Cols reply to OFC!!

[ozo]

"Ozo, while i get what you are getting at, i would draw your attention to the photos you posted #91 & #94, note the letter A? in post 20 the a was cursive? as in "a".---hunter

Ya, I'm just showing some of the stamps the armory used, that's all.

[OneFatCat]

ok OK I give up ..at this point lets just call it a cheap fake and get it over with ...that way we can just end this thread its starting to remind me of my second wife ..thanks to all who chimned in negitve or positive

OFC
signing off

[Bill DeShivs]

I'm looking at the knife, not the stamp.
Reading stamps is the last thing you should do. If you found a Glock pistol with "A. Hitler" engraved on the slide, would you attempt to authenticate it?

[ozo]

I'm curious......
why are you still using bold type ???