The so-called "gun show loophole": other states/private sellers.

Laufer · 04-07-2011, 07:50 PM

Having met people who said that they have bought a single sporting rifle from private sellers (not retail tables) in other southern states. The buyers are Not convicted felons, were Not charged with domestic abuse etc.

Some very experienced gun people have seen ATF guys at the huge Tulsa show, and claim that they are much more interested in people trying to steal AR components, and don't want to bother with an Enfield or Yugo Mauser rifle which could be driven home from TX to AR or FL to AL etc.

They seem to have little interest in enforcement between private US citizens unless a purchase of a large number of guns is made.

Yesterday in Tulsa, a hotel employee (who has bought/sold over a thousand guns) stated that the ATF's primary objective
-regarding shows in the south, southwest, west (let's ignore CA, IL, NJ, NY...)- is that the guns from shows must remain Inside the US.

WABob · 04-07-2011, 09:12 PM

I have gone round and round with people in the past about the non-existence of the "gun show loophole". First I ask that they define the word loophole, then I ask them when and why background checks are required. While they usually are able to understand what the definition of loophole is, they know little or nothing about when a background check is required.

Many people are surprised to hear that the federal government never requires a background check unless it is for a title 2 gun (silencers, machine guns etc.) or it is a transaction between a dealer and an unlicensed person. This requirement for a back ground check is a recent development compared to the history of gun ownership in the USA.

A dealer is always required to obtain a background check and can only deal from the address on their license or a gun show. A person without an FFL is never required by the feds to obtain a background check when selling or buying a title 1 firearm. So where is the loophole?

After explaining these simple facts, I still frequently hear the claim that there is a loophole and that it needs to be closed.

Just can't win sometimes. It is like arguing with a bigot.

Laufer · 04-07-2011, 10:53 PM

WABob:
Are you referring also to private FTF deals at gun shows in Other, nearby states, whereby people often put the gun in the car trunk without worrying about it? This seems to be the main area of concern and some confusion to many of us.

No matter how the regulations are interpreted, all of the middle-aged guys (very experienced) I've chatted with are surprised/baffled that it is considered illegal, at least in practice, to make a private deal at a gun show Across a state line.

Even a moderator watching this topic on another website Finally stated that in practice, it is a loophole because a single old bolt-action rifle does not interest the ATF.

As long as a buyer acquires just one or even two guns, and does Not seem to resemble the types who could be linked to smugglers, then their is no concern in the south/southwestern states with somebody who buys just a bolt-action Mauser, even a semi-auto SKS etc?

A guy might make a roadtrip someday to/from (in-laws) San Antonio TX via Ft. Worth or Dallas, and want to attend a decent gun show where an unusual selection means a nice classic rifle in the car trunk for the long drive back to TN etc.

rentalguy1 · 04-08-2011, 06:06 AM

It's not a loophole. The way the law reads, it is illegal to sell a firearm to a out of state resident. It is illegal to sell a firearm to someone who could not pass the background check and meet the same criteria that a FFL would have to meet. Period. It's a good idea to know a little about the person you are selling a firearm to. It's a even better idea to make all of your firearms transactions go through a FFL.

hunter29180 · 04-08-2011, 06:51 AM

background checks can be good..BUT..when i bought a new gun from a dealer andwas cleared in a few minutes then a wk later wanted to buy another from same dealer and was told i had to wait because they could not get cleared?? thats a PITA!! the dealer was 150 mi away from my home at the time! he did call 12 days later to see if i still wanted the gun..was upset because i had left HIM hanging.,.,i reminded him HE said he would call me as soon as i was cleared..needless to say i turned down the gun and never bought from him again

as far as gun shows..many times i have wanted to buy at one..they always refused because i was not a resident of that state. so i rarely go to any now.

carver · 04-08-2011, 07:19 AM

I live in TX. I sometimes go to gun shows in LA. In LA if I find a rifle, or shotgun, that I want, no problem. I can not buy a hand gun at that show though, because there is a law that prohibits selling a hand gun across state lines. And yet I have bought hand guns in LA, simply by having a dealer from TX buy the gun from a dealer in LA, and then I buy the gun from the TX dealer. I am 62, and have never had a back ground check run on me for the purchase of any gun, because I don't own any class 2 firearms, the only ones requiring a back ground check. It does not matter to me if you have a felony conviction on your record, I am not required by law to run a back ground check on you, and neither is your local neighborhood dealer. If I have a gun you want, and I am wanting to sell it, it is perfectly leagle to do so. So where's the loop hole? What gets sold through this so-called loop hole, and how is it illegal?

States like TX, and LA have no waiting period.

On November 30, 1998, the permanent provisions of the Brady Act went into effect, establishing the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS). Under NICS, a dealer may transfer a firearm to a prospective purchaser as soon as he or she passes a background check. If the FBI is unable to complete a background check within three business days, the dealer may complete the transfer by default. 18 U.S.C. § 922 (t)(1).

Since I have already passed several back ground checks, I don't have to wait at all.

redwing carson · 04-08-2011, 07:45 AM

I need only to show my concealed carry permit. No Brady no checks.

good luck

RC

Laufer · 04-08-2011, 11:28 AM

At gun shows I've only Bought a few guns (WW2-era rifles only), and no more than one per show. I never sell.

This is the only issue for me, but it helps to see it from the seller's perspective. To repeat, the experienced local gun show salesman was at the Tulsa show and saw the ATF guy hanging around in one place, who wanted to make sure that no AR components were stolen.

In other words, the ATF guy(s) did Not seem to care whether any buyers drove their cars from another state, in order to buy a rifle and keep it in the car trunk for the return trip.

04-07-2011, 07:50 PM	#1
Laufer V.I.P. Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: West TN. Posts: 188	The so-called "gun show loophole": other states/private sellers. Having met people who said that they have bought a single sporting rifle from private sellers (not retail tables) in other southern states. The buyers are Not convicted felons, were Not charged with domestic abuse etc. Some very experienced gun people have seen ATF guys at the huge Tulsa show, and claim that they are much more interested in people trying to steal AR components, and don't want to bother with an Enfield or Yugo Mauser rifle which could be driven home from TX to AR or FL to AL etc. They seem to have little interest in enforcement between private US citizens unless a purchase of a large number of guns is made. Yesterday in Tulsa, a hotel employee (who has bought/sold over a thousand guns) stated that the ATF's primary objective -regarding shows in the south, southwest, west (let's ignore CA, IL, NJ, NY...)- is that the guns from shows must remain Inside the US. --> Last edited by Laufer; 04-07-2011 at 08:05 PM..

04-07-2011, 09:12 PM	#2
WABob Former Guest Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: WA USA Posts: 81	Re: The so-called "gun show loophole": other states/private sellers. I have gone round and round with people in the past about the non-existence of the "gun show loophole". First I ask that they define the word loophole, then I ask them when and why background checks are required. While they usually are able to understand what the definition of loophole is, they know little or nothing about when a background check is required. Many people are surprised to hear that the federal government never requires a background check unless it is for a title 2 gun (silencers, machine guns etc.) or it is a transaction between a dealer and an unlicensed person. This requirement for a back ground check is a recent development compared to the history of gun ownership in the USA. A dealer is always required to obtain a background check and can only deal from the address on their license or a gun show. A person without an FFL is never required by the feds to obtain a background check when selling or buying a title 1 firearm. So where is the loophole? After explaining these simple facts, I still frequently hear the claim that there is a loophole and that it needs to be closed. Just can't win sometimes. It is like arguing with a bigot.

04-07-2011, 10:53 PM	#3
Laufer V.I.P. Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: West TN. Posts: 188	Re: The so-called "gun show loophole": other states/private sellers. WABob: Are you referring also to private FTF deals at gun shows in Other, nearby states, whereby people often put the gun in the car trunk without worrying about it? This seems to be the main area of concern and some confusion to many of us. No matter how the regulations are interpreted, all of the middle-aged guys (very experienced) I've chatted with are surprised/baffled that it is considered illegal, at least in practice, to make a private deal at a gun show Across a state line. Even a moderator watching this topic on another website Finally stated that in practice, it is a loophole because a single old bolt-action rifle does not interest the ATF. As long as a buyer acquires just one or even two guns, and does Not seem to resemble the types who could be linked to smugglers, then their is no concern in the south/southwestern states with somebody who buys just a bolt-action Mauser, even a semi-auto SKS etc? A guy might make a roadtrip someday to/from (in-laws) San Antonio TX via Ft. Worth or Dallas, and want to attend a decent gun show where an unusual selection means a nice classic rifle in the car trunk for the long drive back to TN etc. Last edited by Laufer; 04-07-2011 at 11:07 PM..

04-08-2011, 06:06 AM	#4
rentalguy1 Former Guest Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: The mountains of NE TN. Posts: 884	Re: The so-called "gun show loophole": other states/private sellers. It's not a loophole. The way the law reads, it is illegal to sell a firearm to a out of state resident. It is illegal to sell a firearm to someone who could not pass the background check and meet the same criteria that a FFL would have to meet. Period. It's a good idea to know a little about the person you are selling a firearm to. It's a even better idea to make all of your firearms transactions go through a FFL.

04-08-2011, 06:51 AM	#5
hunter29180 Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: in a motorhome where ever we park! Contributor Posts: 1,625	Re: The so-called "gun show loophole": other states/private sellers. background checks can be good..BUT..when i bought a new gun from a dealer andwas cleared in a few minutes then a wk later wanted to buy another from same dealer and was told i had to wait because they could not get cleared?? thats a PITA!! the dealer was 150 mi away from my home at the time! he did call 12 days later to see if i still wanted the gun..was upset because i had left HIM hanging.,.,i reminded him HE said he would call me as soon as i was cleared..needless to say i turned down the gun and never bought from him again as far as gun shows..many times i have wanted to buy at one..they always refused because i was not a resident of that state. so i rarely go to any now.

04-08-2011, 07:19 AM	#6
carver TFF Moderator/Host Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: DAV, Deep in the Pineywoods of East Texas, just west of Shreveport, LA Contributor Posts: 11,216	Re: The so-called "gun show loophole": other states/private sellers. I live in TX. I sometimes go to gun shows in LA. In LA if I find a rifle, or shotgun, that I want, no problem. I can not buy a hand gun at that show though, because there is a law that prohibits selling a hand gun across state lines. And yet I have bought hand guns in LA, simply by having a dealer from TX buy the gun from a dealer in LA, and then I buy the gun from the TX dealer. I am 62, and have never had a back ground check run on me for the purchase of any gun, because I don't own any class 2 firearms, the only ones requiring a back ground check. It does not matter to me if you have a felony conviction on your record, I am not required by law to run a back ground check on you, and neither is your local neighborhood dealer. If I have a gun you want, and I am wanting to sell it, it is perfectly leagle to do so. So where's the loop hole? What gets sold through this so-called loop hole, and how is it illegal? States like TX, and LA have no waiting period. On November 30, 1998, the permanent provisions of the Brady Act went into effect, establishing the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS). Under NICS, a dealer may transfer a firearm to a prospective purchaser as soon as he or she passes a background check. If the FBI is unable to complete a background check within three business days, the dealer may complete the transfer by default. 18 U.S.C. § 922 (t)(1). Since I have already passed several back ground checks, I don't have to wait at all. __________________ Y'all be safe now, ya hear! Lamentations Chapter 5: 1. Remember, O LORD, what is come upon us: consider, and behold our reproach. 2. Our inheritance is turned to strangers, our houses to aliens. 3. We are orphans and fatherless, our mothers [are] as widows. 5. Our necks [are] under persecution: we labour, [and] have no rest. 16. The crown is fallen [from] our head: woe unto us, that we have sinned! 21. Turn thou us unto thee, O LORD, and we shall be turned; renew our days as of old.

04-08-2011, 07:45 AM	#7
redwing carson Former Guest Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: western wyoming Posts: 734	Re: The so-called "gun show loophole": other states/private sellers. I need only to show my concealed carry permit. No Brady no checks.good luck RC

04-08-2011, 11:28 AM	#8
Laufer V.I.P. Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: West TN. Posts: 188	Re: The so-called "gun show loophole": other states/private sellers. At gun shows I've only Bought a few guns (WW2-era rifles only), and no more than one per show. I never sell. This is the only issue for me, but it helps to see it from the seller's perspective. To repeat, the experienced local gun show salesman was at the Tulsa show and saw the ATF guy hanging around in one place, who wanted to make sure that no AR components were stolen. In other words, the ATF guy(s) did Not seem to care whether any buyers drove their cars from another state, in order to buy a rifle and keep it in the car trunk for the return trip. Last edited by Laufer; 04-09-2011 at 07:50 PM..