Flobert Rifles... - The Firearms Forum

Smokin Guns · 08-31-2003, 08:59 PM

I picked up a Heavy (looks like a 18 inch) octagonal barrel one yesterday. I'm curious if anyone knows anything about them or where I can get more information on them.

Smokin Guns · 08-31-2003, 09:34 PM

It might be a 20 inch barrel. Here's the Pic...

armedandsafe · 08-31-2003, 09:49 PM

The first two returns from Google show $1200 price tag, then this, from www.armscollectors.com/faq.htm/faq.htm :
______________________________

"Flobert Rifles:
During the period from the 1890s through about 1920 "Boy's rifles" were very popular items for youngsters. (Why could you give 10 year olds guns then and they wouldn't shoot anyone, while now guns are banned from anyone under 18 but kids are killing lots of folks?) Anyway, Belgium was a major source of inexpensive guns, and many thousands were imported, often sold by big mail order companies like Sears, Montgomery Wards, etc. The most common action used was a "Flobert" design, this is similar to what Americans often call a "rolling block" action. Most Floberts were .22 rimfire (sometimes short, or long, or long rifle). Sometimes other caliber's are seen, .25 or .32 rimfire, or even 9mm rimfire, but ammo is basically not available for any of these. Even in excellent condition there is little collector interest in Flobert rifles. If your gun has some family history, it is probably a nice souvenir, if not, it is good decoration, but not something that is very valuable. "

then a couple of entries farther down, we find one for only $1600.00.

Pops

Smokin Guns · 08-31-2003, 09:57 PM

Thanks for the link Pops...

I put two .22lr through it today...one from the hip and one from the shoulder, it shot okay! It's rear site is a peep...Reckon it ought to be worth a million $'s...

armedandsafe · 08-31-2003, 10:02 PM

This might interest you, too:
From travel to wyoming
_______________________________

With development of the breechloader in process, the final step toward modern firearms was improvement of the cartridge material itself. The basic design was at hand, and it was just a matter of time until the cartridge's weak unit, the paper tube, was replaced with a material that was stronger and more durable. This evolution initially came through the percussion "cap" that was already in use - a small, brass cylinder holding the fulminate of mercury detonator. Flobert, a Frenchman, in 1849 put as small lead ball in the mouth of a cap - a "BB Cap" for Bulleted Breech Cap - thereby creating a self-contained round. Horace Smith and Daniel Wesson patented a .22 Short round in 1860 that was larger and therefore more effective than the BB Cap.

Pops

gamachinist · 08-31-2003, 10:07 PM

That looks like a Warnant action from the photo.The Warnant works like a Trap Door Springfield.Does the breech block swing up?

I don't know who would pay that kind of money for a Warnant or Flobert but send them my way,I've got two that I'm not that fond of!

Most of those have shot out barrels as they were made out of fairly soft metal.Look at the fired cases for bulges near the rim too as the extractor cut is pretty deep into the chamber.If the barrel is gone and you try to reline it,thin the extractor so the cut isn't so deep.(Personal experience talking!)

Robert.

Smokin Guns · 08-31-2003, 10:18 PM

Quote:

That looks like a Warnant action from the photo.The Warnant works like a Trap Door Springfield.Does the breech block swing up?

Yep Robert! It's got a strong spring in it (or whatever it's using to hold it against the cartridge)...It's marked S or LR, ...Reckon I oughta stay with the shorts?...The Bore is shiny with visible rifleing...

armedandsafe · 08-31-2003, 10:28 PM

how much fun it is to research stuff like this.
________________________________________

Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 20:08:35 -0600
From: "David A. Tomlinson" <nfadat@telusplanet.net>
Subject: Daniel and Horace

Horace Smith and Daniel Baird Wesson (Yes, THAT S&W!) formed a partnership in 1852 to manufacture the "rocket ball" Volcanic lever-action repeating pistol. The "rocket ball" was a conical lead bullet with a deep hollow base. The primer was put into that hole, then a feeble charge of black powder, then a sheet of cork. The firing pin punched through the cork, then the powder, then mashed the primer against the end of the hole. BOOM! Er -- more like PWFFFFFF!, actually.

The pistol operated much like a lever-action rifle. In fact, after S&W gave up on it, the Volcanic was re-designed to use rimfire metallic cartridges and became first the Henry and then the Winchester M1866 -- by Oliver Winchester's company.

S&W abandoned the Volcanic because they haad a new and better design -- the Wesson-designed .22 and .32 rimfire revolver that became the S&W Model 1. It ALSO used rimfire metallic cartridges, invented in Europe by Monsieur Flobert.

The key to being able to manufacture the cartridge-using Model 1 lay in the Rollin White patent, which covered a revolver cylinder bored through from end to end, instead of partly drilled like a cap-and-ball cylinder. (White patented it for use in an unsuccessful cap-and-ball revolver.) S&W paid White $70,000 in royalties before that patent expired in 1869, but White had to spend a lot of that money defending the patent as people infringed upon it. He got $0.25 per revolver.

The tiny Model 1 was the only handgun in the S&W line from 1856, when they formed their NEW partnership, to 1865, when the US Civil War ended. That was probably because they could sell everything they could make in wartime, so why complicate life by designing improvements?

While the tiny Model 1 may seem ridiculous as a military weapon, it was actually very popular with Union officers. Forbidden to carry a large sidearm while wearing the uniform, they found that the Model 1 did not spoil the fit of their clothing.

Speculation: What if S&W had realized that the same cure -- the Flobert rimfire cartridge -- that made the Model 1 possible had ALSO come as the salvation of the Volcanic design? Would S&W have become not only the great handgun manufacturer, but also have taken Winchester's place in history -- in RIFLES?

Dave Tomlinson, NFA

FOCUS: Hindsight is always 20-20 vision. In real life, the constant moan of humanity is, "It seemed like a good idea at the time!"

pickenup · 09-01-2003, 01:41 AM

Had one for a number of years. I was always afraid to use modern ammo in it. Sold it on an online "auction" site for $175 a while back. Sure would have liked to got $12-1600.

gamachinist · 09-01-2003, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Smokin Guns
Yep Robert! It's got a strong spring in it (or whatever it's using to hold it against the cartridge)...It's marked S or LR, ...Reckon I oughta stay with the shorts?...The Bore is shiny with visible rifleing...

Sounds like a good shooter!

As for the spring on the breech block,mine doesn't have one,just the weight of the block and the hammer traps it down too.It could be that mine are worn out and since yours has a nice bore it is in nearly new condition!

Robert.

Smokin Guns · 09-01-2003, 11:54 AM

getting closer...found an ammo manufacturer...

FLOBERT AMMUNITION is named after the French gunsmith M. Flobert. He was the true inventor of the rimfire principle.
Originally, Flobert ammunition was by definition a cartridge wherein the priming and propellant charges were one and the same. More recently, rimfire cartridges, small shot cartridges and Flobert cartridges supporting a round-nose bullet were developed to contain a small additional amount of powder as a supplementary propellant charge, thus enabling a more effective cartridge to be produced. These are the cartridges in use today.

FLOBERT STARTING BLANKS are intended for use with starting and signal pistols. They emit a sharp loud bang of approximately 100 decibels.
213 0327 .22 6mm Crimped Blank

FLOBERT BULLETED CARTRIDGES in 6mm caliber with pointed or round-nose bullets are primarily intended for pest control. In spite of the small ignition charge, the cartridges maintain an accurate flight path. These cartridges are mainly fired from smooth barreled guns.
Accuracy is ensured up to distances of 15 metres.
213 0505 .22 6mm BB Caps
213 0521 .22 6mm CB Caps

Smokin Guns · 09-01-2003, 12:40 PM

Found a Retailer, order is in...now just waitin for my Hi-Powered BB Gun Ammo to get here. Thanks to all that helped!

Gamachinst, Is the barrel rifled or not. It's got a spiraling of some kind in it?

Flobert Ammo

gamachinist · 09-01-2003, 04:14 PM

As far as I know,it's supposed to be rifled.Is yours smooth bored?Mine had something of a twist in a sewer pipe look when I bought it!I'll go dig out some books on single shots and see what I can find for you.
Robert.

Smokin Guns · 09-01-2003, 05:03 PM

gamachinist, it looks like its rifled...

gamachinist · 09-03-2003, 08:18 PM

SG,
I havn't been able to get to the books that have the info on the Warnant you have.
I'm pretty sure it is shown in "Arms of the World 1911"(a collection of catalogs from 1911),Probably "Boys Single Shot Rifles by Grant,and posibly some others if you can look in a library or if anyone else can look.If I get a chance I'll look over the coming weekend.
Robert.

z537z · 09-03-2003, 08:27 PM

Jeez where do you get all this stuff man? You startin an army that I should know about?
Are the critters planning something?
Should I lock my windows?

6mm CB caps. Wierd stuff.
Imagine it'd be pretty quiet fun stuff for shootin varms in the back yard. Like Colibris and whatnot.

Let us know how it works out. Sure it can't use .22rimfire? dunno of any other "S or LR" round.

_z

gamachinist · 09-03-2003, 10:26 PM

z537z,
As for wierd stuff,I missed out on a Anschutz 4 mm "cadet" style training rifle a few years back.I tried to buy it several times but just wasn't there at the right one when it finally was sold.
I did get a deal on a 22 LR Mauser built trainer a few years later so I guess it all worked out (at least I can afford to shoot it).
Robert.

Smokin Guns · 09-04-2003, 05:27 PM

Z,

Quote:

Are the critters planning something?

...

Im a'thinkin' they are!...Just want to be prepared when dem leetle sumsabiches, attack me on the way to the mailbox...

z537z · 09-08-2003, 06:18 PM

I'm thinkin you're right

.

Well I'm turbocharging my car.

Puts a kibosh on my gun-buying!

I'll see what I can do this summer.
I want an older .22 pistol. Something nice.

I'll try and check in here every couple days. Darn this off season!

_z

Smokin Guns · 09-14-2003, 01:25 AM

Ammo arrived whils't I was away fer a cup'la dayz...Post up a pic tommorow...!...

wundudnee · 09-15-2003, 08:40 PM

I may have to try some of that ammo in my mailbox protecting long range varmint rifles.

Smokin Guns · 09-16-2003, 06:51 PM

wundudnee, Y'all always has me outgunned!...

It ain't right, it just ain't right!!!...

z537z · 09-16-2003, 09:55 PM

Give me my romy and plenty of ammo and them critters is hurtin!

It's all I'd need. That sucker is jsut a beauty of a rifle.

SIGH I miss it so much

.

Goin home this weekend, gonna have to take it out.

_z

joalemgreen · 11-16-2008, 08:24 PM

Hi, just got on the web to look up Belgium Flobert Rifle .22. Never heard of one before & here you are. My husband brought one home Friday for my daughter to look at for our grandson for his birthday (12) in a couple of weeks. She didn't care for it, not what she was looking for. Yahoo, I was happy, I fell in love with this beautiful single shot. Yes it loads like an old Springfield. Took it out yesterday and shot about 50 rounds of .22 Federals through it, it is quite accurate. I only paid $200.00 for it and have no complaints.

08-31-2003, 08:59 PM	#1
Smokin Guns Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: "Gun Culture Members Clubhouse"... Posts: 4,463	Flobert Rifles... I picked up a Heavy (looks like a 18 inch) octagonal barrel one yesterday. I'm curious if anyone knows anything about them or where I can get more information on them. __________________ -->

08-31-2003, 09:34 PM	#2
Smokin Guns Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: "Gun Culture Members Clubhouse"... Posts: 4,463	It might be a 20 inch barrel. Here's the Pic... Attached Images __________________

08-31-2003, 09:57 PM	#4
Smokin Guns Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: "Gun Culture Members Clubhouse"... Posts: 4,463	Thanks for the link Pops... I put two .22lr through it today...one from the hip and one from the shoulder, it shot okay! It's rear site is a peep...Reckon it ought to be worth a million $'s... __________________

08-31-2003, 10:28 PM	#8
armedandsafe Former Guest Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Moses Lake, WA Posts: 10,344	I had forgotten... how much fun it is to research stuff like this. ________________________________________ Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 20:08:35 -0600 From: "David A. Tomlinson" <nfadat@telusplanet.net> Subject: Daniel and Horace Horace Smith and Daniel Baird Wesson (Yes, THAT S&W!) formed a partnership in 1852 to manufacture the "rocket ball" Volcanic lever-action repeating pistol. The "rocket ball" was a conical lead bullet with a deep hollow base. The primer was put into that hole, then a feeble charge of black powder, then a sheet of cork. The firing pin punched through the cork, then the powder, then mashed the primer against the end of the hole. BOOM! Er -- more like PWFFFFFF!, actually. The pistol operated much like a lever-action rifle. In fact, after S&W gave up on it, the Volcanic was re-designed to use rimfire metallic cartridges and became first the Henry and then the Winchester M1866 -- by Oliver Winchester's company. S&W abandoned the Volcanic because they haad a new and better design -- the Wesson-designed .22 and .32 rimfire revolver that became the S&W Model 1. It ALSO used rimfire metallic cartridges, invented in Europe by Monsieur Flobert. The key to being able to manufacture the cartridge-using Model 1 lay in the Rollin White patent, which covered a revolver cylinder bored through from end to end, instead of partly drilled like a cap-and-ball cylinder. (White patented it for use in an unsuccessful cap-and-ball revolver.) S&W paid White $70,000 in royalties before that patent expired in 1869, but White had to spend a lot of that money defending the patent as people infringed upon it. He got $0.25 per revolver. The tiny Model 1 was the only handgun in the S&W line from 1856, when they formed their NEW partnership, to 1865, when the US Civil War ended. That was probably because they could sell everything they could make in wartime, so why complicate life by designing improvements? While the tiny Model 1 may seem ridiculous as a military weapon, it was actually very popular with Union officers. Forbidden to carry a large sidearm while wearing the uniform, they found that the Model 1 did not spoil the fit of their clothing. Speculation: What if S&W had realized that the same cure -- the Flobert rimfire cartridge -- that made the Model 1 possible had ALSO come as the salvation of the Volcanic design? Would S&W have become not only the great handgun manufacturer, but also have taken Winchester's place in history -- in RIFLES? Dave Tomlinson, NFA FOCUS: Hindsight is always 20-20 vision. In real life, the constant moan of humanity is, "It seemed like a good idea at the time!"

09-01-2003, 01:41 AM	#9
pickenup Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains Posts: 6,841	Had one for a number of years. I was always afraid to use modern ammo in it. Sold it on an online "auction" site for $175 a while back. Sure would have liked to got $12-1600. __________________ The gene pool needs chlorine

08-31-2003, 09:49 PM	#3
armedandsafe Former Guest Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Moses Lake, WA Posts: 10,344	The first two returns from Google show $1200 price tag, then this, from www.armscollectors.com/faq.htm/faq.htm : ______________________________ "Flobert Rifles: During the period from the 1890s through about 1920 "Boy's rifles" were very popular items for youngsters. (Why could you give 10 year olds guns then and they wouldn't shoot anyone, while now guns are banned from anyone under 18 but kids are killing lots of folks?) Anyway, Belgium was a major source of inexpensive guns, and many thousands were imported, often sold by big mail order companies like Sears, Montgomery Wards, etc. The most common action used was a "Flobert" design, this is similar to what Americans often call a "rolling block" action. Most Floberts were .22 rimfire (sometimes short, or long, or long rifle). Sometimes other caliber's are seen, .25 or .32 rimfire, or even 9mm rimfire, but ammo is basically not available for any of these. Even in excellent condition there is little collector interest in Flobert rifles. If your gun has some family history, it is probably a nice souvenir, if not, it is good decoration, but not something that is very valuable. " then a couple of entries farther down, we find one for only $1600.00. Pops

08-31-2003, 10:02 PM	#5
armedandsafe Former Guest Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Moses Lake, WA Posts: 10,344	This might interest you, too: From travel to wyoming _______________________________ With development of the breechloader in process, the final step toward modern firearms was improvement of the cartridge material itself. The basic design was at hand, and it was just a matter of time until the cartridge's weak unit, the paper tube, was replaced with a material that was stronger and more durable. This evolution initially came through the percussion "cap" that was already in use - a small, brass cylinder holding the fulminate of mercury detonator. Flobert, a Frenchman, in 1849 put as small lead ball in the mouth of a cap - a "BB Cap" for Bulleted Breech Cap - thereby creating a self-contained round. Horace Smith and Daniel Wesson patented a .22 Short round in 1860 that was larger and therefore more effective than the BB Cap. Pops

08-31-2003, 10:07 PM	#6
gamachinist V.I.P. Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Locust Grove GA Posts: 213	That looks like a Warnant action from the photo.The Warnant works like a Trap Door Springfield.Does the breech block swing up? I don't know who would pay that kind of money for a Warnant or Flobert but send them my way,I've got two that I'm not that fond of! Most of those have shot out barrels as they were made out of fairly soft metal.Look at the fired cases for bulges near the rim too as the extractor cut is pretty deep into the chamber.If the barrel is gone and you try to reline it,thin the extractor so the cut isn't so deep.(Personal experience talking!) Robert.

09-01-2003, 11:54 AM	#11
Smokin Guns Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: "Gun Culture Members Clubhouse"... Posts: 4,463	getting closer...found an ammo manufacturer... FLOBERT AMMUNITION is named after the French gunsmith M. Flobert. He was the true inventor of the rimfire principle. Originally, Flobert ammunition was by definition a cartridge wherein the priming and propellant charges were one and the same. More recently, rimfire cartridges, small shot cartridges and Flobert cartridges supporting a round-nose bullet were developed to contain a small additional amount of powder as a supplementary propellant charge, thus enabling a more effective cartridge to be produced. These are the cartridges in use today. FLOBERT STARTING BLANKS are intended for use with starting and signal pistols. They emit a sharp loud bang of approximately 100 decibels. 213 0327 .22 6mm Crimped Blank FLOBERT BULLETED CARTRIDGES in 6mm caliber with pointed or round-nose bullets are primarily intended for pest control. In spite of the small ignition charge, the cartridges maintain an accurate flight path. These cartridges are mainly fired from smooth barreled guns. Accuracy is ensured up to distances of 15 metres. 213 0505 .22 6mm BB Caps 213 0521 .22 6mm CB Caps __________________ Last edited by Smokin Guns; 09-01-2003 at 11:57 AM..

09-01-2003, 12:40 PM	#12
Smokin Guns Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: "Gun Culture Members Clubhouse"... Posts: 4,463	Found a Retailer, order is in...now just waitin for my Hi-Powered BB Gun Ammo to get here. Thanks to all that helped! Gamachinst, Is the barrel rifled or not. It's got a spiraling of some kind in it? Flobert Ammo __________________ Last edited by Smokin Guns; 09-01-2003 at 12:47 PM..

09-01-2003, 04:14 PM	#13
gamachinist V.I.P. Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Locust Grove GA Posts: 213	As far as I know,it's supposed to be rifled.Is yours smooth bored?Mine had something of a twist in a sewer pipe look when I bought it!I'll go dig out some books on single shots and see what I can find for you. Robert.

09-01-2003, 05:03 PM	#14
Smokin Guns Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: "Gun Culture Members Clubhouse"... Posts: 4,463	gamachinist, it looks like its rifled... __________________

09-03-2003, 08:18 PM	#15
gamachinist V.I.P. Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Locust Grove GA Posts: 213	SG, I havn't been able to get to the books that have the info on the Warnant you have. I'm pretty sure it is shown in "Arms of the World 1911"(a collection of catalogs from 1911),Probably "Boys Single Shot Rifles by Grant,and posibly some others if you can look in a library or if anyone else can look.If I get a chance I'll look over the coming weekend. Robert.

09-03-2003, 08:27 PM	#16
z537z Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Maine, love it or get the heck out Posts: 598	Jeez where do you get all this stuff man? You startin an army that I should know about? Are the critters planning something? Should I lock my windows? 6mm CB caps. Wierd stuff. Imagine it'd be pretty quiet fun stuff for shootin varms in the back yard. Like Colibris and whatnot. Let us know how it works out. Sure it can't use .22rimfire? dunno of any other "S or LR" round. _z __________________ "The distance between insanity and genius is measured only by success." my pics

09-03-2003, 10:26 PM	#17
gamachinist V.I.P. Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Locust Grove GA Posts: 213	z537z, As for wierd stuff,I missed out on a Anschutz 4 mm "cadet" style training rifle a few years back.I tried to buy it several times but just wasn't there at the right one when it finally was sold. I did get a deal on a 22 LR Mauser built trainer a few years later so I guess it all worked out (at least I can afford to shoot it). Robert.

09-08-2003, 06:18 PM	#19
z537z Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Maine, love it or get the heck out Posts: 598	I'm thinkin you're right . Well I'm turbocharging my car. Puts a kibosh on my gun-buying! I'll see what I can do this summer. I want an older .22 pistol. Something nice. I'll try and check in here every couple days. Darn this off season! _z __________________ "The distance between insanity and genius is measured only by success." my pics

09-14-2003, 01:25 AM	#20
Smokin Guns Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: "Gun Culture Members Clubhouse"... Posts: 4,463	Ammo arrived whils't I was away fer a cup'la dayz...Post up a pic tommorow...!... __________________

09-15-2003, 08:40 PM	#21
wundudnee V.I.P. Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Perry, Kansas USA Posts: 315	I may have to try some of that ammo in my mailbox protecting long range varmint rifles. Attached Images

09-16-2003, 06:51 PM	#22
Smokin Guns Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: "Gun Culture Members Clubhouse"... Posts: 4,463	wundudnee, Y'all always has me outgunned!... It ain't right, it just ain't right!!!... __________________

09-16-2003, 09:55 PM	#23
z537z Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Maine, love it or get the heck out Posts: 598	Give me my romy and plenty of ammo and them critters is hurtin! It's all I'd need. That sucker is jsut a beauty of a rifle. SIGH I miss it so much . Goin home this weekend, gonna have to take it out. _z __________________ "The distance between insanity and genius is measured only by success." my pics

11-16-2008, 08:24 PM	#24
joalemgreen Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 1	Re: Flobert Rifles... Hi, just got on the web to look up Belgium Flobert Rifle .22. Never heard of one before & here you are. My husband brought one home Friday for my daughter to look at for our grandson for his birthday (12) in a couple of weeks. She didn't care for it, not what she was looking for. Yahoo, I was happy, I fell in love with this beautiful single shot. Yes it loads like an old Springfield. Took it out yesterday and shot about 50 rounds of .22 Federals through it, it is quite accurate. I only paid $200.00 for it and have no complaints.