H&R Sportsman RESEARCH

[Jim Hauff]

Second, I have an H&R .38 Defender of about WWII vintage. It also has the "Rice" frame like the Sportsman, but it has the small cylinder release button on the left side of the frame. Nothing I do with make it release the cylinder. How is it meant to work? Mine does not seem to move in any direction.

That small button on the left side is part of a approx. 1 1/4" long bowed spring. The longer pointed end of the spring fits into a groove cut into the "quill" and inserts towards the front or muzzle end of the gun. About 2/3s of the way back (towards the cylinder) of the spring is the button and at the shorter end is a small hook. There are two known types of this spring: one that is milled and the button is solid; and one that is "stamped" or formed and the button is a square bend in the spring - both work the same way. The small hook at the rear end, catches on a milled boss or flange inside of the cylinder bushing and keeps the cylinder from rising on the arbor when the action is "broken open" and auto ejection occurs. Pushing the button in towards the quill, disengages the hook from the catch flange and allows the cylinder to be pulled off of the arbor - again, when the action is broken open and the extractor star is allowed to reset to a rest position.
If pushing the button inward doesn't release the cylinder - then something is keeping the small hook from disengaging the flange. That could mean a build up of crud under the spring in the shallow channel in which it fits. Or, it could mean that someone tried to pull the cylinder off the arbor without pushing in on the button to disengage the hook.
Try running some gun oil or crud remover in to the channel around the button to remove crud from under the spring. If that doesn't work, try pushing the cylinder towards the barrel, with the action broken open while pushing the button in as far as it will go - hopefully, allowing the hook to disengage from the flange. Let us know how you make out.
If you would like the history of the "DEFENDER" revolvers, I will be glad to supply it along with a series of pictures. Most of what is published, currently, about this series is incorrect or incomplete. Just ask - also, if you provide the serial number found on your Defender, I can provide an approximate year of manufacture.
Good luck and keep us informed as to the problem.

[Lanrezac]

Thank you, sir! I will try Hoppes on the Sportsman, and RemOil on the Defender. But I will let someone who is more skilled than I am with tools try to get that firing pin retainer pin out - the Sportsman is near-mint, and I have a hard time just getting reluctant screws out without buggering them up. Just getting the grips off the Sportsman was touch-and-go.

I will post the Defender's SN as soon as I can. It is the later version, with sights rather like the Sportsman's.

[Jim Hauff]

Lanrezac,
You're welcome, sir! Hope it all works out for you. Looking forward to the s/n of the Defender.

[Lanrezac]

The H&R Defender 38's serial number is 6407. This number is both on the front of the grip frame, and on the side of it, underneath the black plastic grips. The number on the side has the letters M H stamped under it. I have still been unable to remove the cylinder to look under the top strap. The number 16 is stamped on the left side of the frame, near what I take to be the hammer pivot screw.

The company name and address is stamped on the top of the barrel. The back sight is adjustable for windage, and the front sight, which has a brass bead, is adjustable for elevation.

Thanks again, and let me know if there is anything else I can tell you about these guns. I am glad to see there are people interested in them.

[Jim Hauff]

Lanrezac,
Please do me a favor - Copy your info directly from what you posted above and start a new thread. That way we'll start a thread on the DEFENDER series and not mix it in with the SPORTSMAN RESEARCH thread. There is a lot of info on this series and starting a new thread will make it easier for others searching the DEFENDER 38 to find info on them. OK?
Thanks.

[Lanrezac]

This is the best I could do for pictures of my H&R Sportsman single action, SN S14018. I could not get a good close-up of of the markings.

Incidentally, I am trying to decide whether to sell this pistol or not. I got it with the intent of shooting it, but it is almost in too nice a shape for that. It shows very little sign of ever having been fired (for instance, there is no brass rubbing on the standing breech). Also, the firing pin still sticks in the forward position, and I have no intention of trying to drive out its retaining pin.

BTW, in one shot the hammer looks purple-colored. That is just my poor photography - both sides are bright steel. The other side of the hammer has some dried oil I am considering tackling with 0000 steel wool. Also, the barrel bluing is uniform for the whole length of the barrel. Taking a picture of such reflective object was hard. You people make it look so easy!

[Jim Hauff]

Lanrezac,
Beautiful piece! One of the nicest Model 199s I've seen.
TAKE YOUR GUN TO A GOOD GUNSMITH and have him change the firing pin or spring for you.
THEN, TAKE YOUR GUN OUT AND SHOOT IT! You will be glad you did. The experience is worth the expense.
IF/WHEN you shoot it, before taking it to the range - coat the entire outside of the gun with spray silicone - worked into all the nooks and crannies as well all falt surfaces with a Q-tip. Let it dry, then buff with a clean, soft cloth. After shooting - the residue built up at the muzzle, on the face and front sides of the cylinder and on the rear face of the cylinder will wipe away very easily - and you won't degrade the look.
Thanks for sharing your pics.

[Lanrezac]

Thanks again, Mr. Hauff. I have been away from shooting for a while, and am not familiar with silicone spray for guns. Would wiping it down with a Hoppe's Silicone Cloth have the same effect, or would that not leave enough behind?

[jamesjo]

Lanrezak,
NICE old Sportsman you have there!
Don't sell it, enjoy it!
I only have one older Sportsman, a model 777 Ultra Sportsman.
All my others are much later models.
However, seeing nice examples like yours, makes me appreciate the older models, more and more all the time!

[Jim Hauff]

Lanrezac,
The Silicone Cloth is what gave me the idea of using the much less expensive silicone spray. I buy it at the hardware store - it is merely a "commercial" product - not specifically for firearms. You get 1000% more service from one can than you do from a single 6 buck impregnated cloth. In fact, if you want to, you can make your own cloths for portable use.

[Capt Mac Turk]

OK "Jim" here we go I think LOL (I'm trying!)

The first pic is my Pops Evar Johnson sealed 8 & the H & R 922
Second is the H&R broke down
Third is the Cylinder theres numbers on the inside of the rim they read
( 4 3 0 )

1) serial # F9430
2)Firing pin on hammer
3)safty rim----ONLY markings on cylinder appear to be pat 1904
(its kinda cut off) & inside cylinder as stated befor (430)
4)Release cylinder--Push button left side
5)H&R arms comp-under that Worcester Mass & in bigger letters H & R 922 LEFT side of barrel
6) DA
7)Front sight Solid Soldered NO rear sight but the slot above the hammer
8)Cheapy plastic hand grips

ANY Info greatly Appreciated
LOL it took me 3 hours between taking the pictures photo bucket thing & typing this all out
I SURE HOPE IT WORKED! HOLY SNIKES IT WORKED!!! Had 2 edit LOL

[Jim Hauff]

Capt.
#1 - I don't have knowledge or info on the Iver Johnson gun - some one else can supply info - you should probably post this as a NEW THREAD.


#2 - This one is a "standard" Model 922, 1st Model 4th Variation, made in 1945. Production from that year is rather scarce, as H&R wound down from wartime production, it was probably put together from parts left over from pre-war production. It should have a "free wheeling" cylinder and does have the longer cylinder pin and "heavy" hammer characteristic of this Variation.The "safety rim cylinder" was stamped with a patent number (1904730, which covers that rim), but guns made in that period all seem to have cylinders that are poorly stamped - I believe the die used was worn down quite a bit (FUBAR comes to mind) and resulted in light marking strikes.
The "mono-grip" was made of a variant of nylon and is not actually "cheap plastic".
Hope this helps.

[Capt Mac Turk]

Originally Posted by Jim Hauff

Capt.



#2 - This one is a "standard" Model 922, 1st Model 4th Variation, made in 1945. Production from that year is rather scarce, as H&R wound down from wartime production, it was probably put together from parts left over from pre-war production. It should have a "free wheeling" cylinder and does have the longer cylinder pin and "heavy" hammer characteristic of this Variation.The "safety rim cylinder" was stamped with a patent number (1904730, which covers that rim), but guns made in that period all seem to have cylinders that are poorly stamped - I believe the die used was worn down quite a bit (FUBAR comes to mind) and resulted in light marking strikes.
The "mono-grip" was made of a variant of nylon and is not actually "cheap plastic".
Hope this helps.
Attachment 52303

HOLY COW Never figured it was That old! I beleave now that both these pistols were my Grand pa's his Dad (Died when I was 2 or 3)
But I grew up shooting both these plinkers! but the IJ was mine
I took both to the range last sunday the H&R has failure 2 fire alot
(USING GOOD AMMO CCI's)
If I run threw them again it fires on second go around. (Any thoughts?)
The Iver Johnson (My very first gun) fired EVERY round 8--8--8 loaded 3 times..I was SHOCKED the Hammer wont hold back in the cocked position anymore though.
Mr Goforth (God bless him)
I found one of his articles & wanted to ask a Question till I read about his Passing in the thread.
(So Sorry about your Friend) That's how I come to be here now tho.
(And LOVE it here by the way
VERY NICE IMFORMITIVE FRIENDLY FOLKS HERE!!!)
if you know IJ gun smith that could fix that PLEASE send him my way!
ANYWAY Back 2 the H&R
Your dead on tho the cylinder IS a "Free Wheeler" I DONT remember this as a kid But THIS one my POPS carryed.
I thought something was wrong with it! A buddy I know told me look it locks on a chamber every time so he said (I would shoot it,,, SO I DID)
yup little crazy
RIGHT ON with the Pull pin ALSO it is about out front 1 3/4 inches long!
The "Sear" do'es look Alot differant then the one in your pic (I seen the notes on the picture VERY INTERESTING was there a reason why?)
& my Hammer looks to be alittle longer then the one in the pics.
The Bluing on this gun seems to be at least 85% it is a sweet gun!
Not that I would EVER sell this gun what would you concider it's value to be?
THANKS ever so much!
Mac

[Jim Hauff]

Capt.
You're welcome glad to help out on the H&R. There are a couple guys on here who are very knowledgable about fixing the older Iver Johnson guns - start a new thread asking specific questions and giving specific info on the IJ and you will get several responses.

As to "light strikes" with the 922, that will ignite with second strike - sounds like the main coil spring is getting a bit weak. Some one recently posted about adding washers as spacers to the main coil spring on a similar gun with a similar malady - and that worked. Do a search -if I come across it again, I'll steer you towards it.
As to the differences in the hammer and single action sear lever - H&R used quite a few different configurations - there are 8 recognized variations in the Model 922 from circa 1925-'26 up to 1953 - and many of those involved hammer shape and sear lever shape. As I said, a 922 made in 1945 was most likely made from a variety of left over parts from pre-war production. H&R seems to have never thrown away anything usable and there are quite a few "hybrids" or as collectors call them "transitional" pieces found in the market.
As to value - the Model 922 doesn't command a high RETAIL value, in condition described I would think the RETAIL price would be in the $135 - $150 range.
As to pics and Bill G. - the vast majority of the photos that I post on this site are from my research files (taken of pieces that are or formerly were) in my personal collection - and those were sent to Bill G. over the course of the H&R research project. Notes on the pics were intended to point out specific points of interest, showing changes, odd features, new features, etc. so he could visualize rather than merely reading about those changes.
Good luck with your 922 and Sealed 8 - good old guns that deserve to be used and taken care of.
Here's a "comparison" pic that I sent to Bill G. -

[Capt Mac Turk]

JIM it says thats ----Invalid Attachment specified--If you followed a Valid link, please notify the administrator.

TY Very Much 4 your INFO
Someone told me to move the "Sear" with a PIN & it FIXED the IJ for a Little while I was like a Kid :-)
but then it started doing it again
I would GLADELY pay to have that IJ fixed since it has been in my family a Long time & was my First weapon. And I loved it as a Snake gun to carry while out in the woods.

[Jim Hauff]

Capt. Mac,
You're welcome, glad to help out - thanks for thanking - keep your scuppers dry and your bilge pumped - ahoy, matey!

[Capt Mac Turk]

Originally Posted by Jim Hauff

Capt. Mac,
You're welcome, glad to help out - thanks for thanking -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
keep your scuppers dry and your bilge pumped - ahoy, matey!

HEY JIM I LOVE THAT!!

I added that as Your Quote in my Signature !!!!!

(Afterthought)

Sorry shoulda asked before I did it,
If you want me to extract your name I will.
Let me know Please

[Jim Hauff]

Capt.
Jeez, I don't mind at all.

[Capt Mac Turk]

Originally Posted by Jim Hauff

Capt.
Jeez, I don't mind at all.

COOL TY

[Oneiowan]

Serial number is D4677- This was my grandfathers-Very good to excellent condition- I even still have the original box!!! Patent number 1904730 on the cylinder. Very nice firing gun!!!! I am not at all sure if the picture I took will post....

[Jim Hauff]

Oneiowan,
Welcome to the forum.
Thanks for the info on your SPORTSMAN. From the data I have: it is a 1st Model 2nd Variation (it should have a "slab sided barrel" rather than a "keyhole" profile barrel.) Year of manufacture will be towards the middle of 1933. Also, the cylinder release should be a 1" long lever on the right side, the top rib should have the manufacturer's name and address stamp. The cylinder should have a raised "safety rim" around the back face of the cylinder. The firing pin should be in the frame and the front sight should be adjustable. If it doesn't have one or more of these attributes please let me know. Pics would be very welcome. Would, also, like to see a pic of the label on the right side of the box. Thanks.

[state_raised]

I have an old H&R Sportsman and it looks like I finally found the place to get some info on it. It has a fixed front sight, patent number on cyl. is 1904730. Cylinder does has safety ring with number 165 stamped on face of cylinder cylinder release is a lever apprx. 1" long. The gun is Double action and Serial number is D20165. The hammer is broken and I'm wondering if anyone know where to find parts for this gun. Is it the same as a 199 or 999? Thanks for any help anyone can give.

[Jim Hauff]

state raised,
Welcome to the forum and thanks for posting.
From the info and s/n your SPORTSMAN is a 1st Model, 2nd Variation. It was made in mid to late 1934 (my best guess at this time.)
Your SPORTSMAN should have a height adjustment screw above the muzzle in the barrel rib; the firing pin should be mounted in the frame and not on the hammer??????
IF this is the case (it should be) go to the Numrich/GPC site (http://www.gunpartscorp.com/catalog/...70C&catid=7937) and check out this hammer. THEN CALL the tech number and discuss what you need with the parts guy. There are two variations of the hammer with no firing pin attached - the early one like yours which will have a smooth face and the much later (after 1973) hammer meant to be used with the transfer bar safety system, which will have a step at the top which contacts the frame. Explain to the tech that you have an early example and need the smooth faced hammer, they may or may not have one lying about, but this is your best bet right now. I don't know for sure, but I do NOT think that the hammer for the SINGLE ACTION Mod. 199 will work with the DA Mod. 999???

THIS IS WHAT YOU NEED:



DO NOT TRY EITHER OF THESE:

[state_raised]

Thanks and you were correect on the height adj screw, sorry for the mis-info there. It does have a frame mounted firing pin with no transfer bar system so i appreciate the info there as well. Again, thanks for all your research and info, it's great to find people willing to help others!!!

[Jim Hauff]

state,
You're welcome - glad to help out. Thanks for thanking.