H&R Sportsman RESEARCH

[Roberthas]

Here is one for you Jim, I hope I can upload my pics right. This is my first post here.
I have two old guns that have been in the family, probably since new. I have traced the Colt Woodsman to be a '29. Now I have this Sportsman. It has been the "chicken coup" gun for as long as I can remember and has been used to protect and cull in two different coups. My father-in-laws, and then mine for the past 15 years.
Mine has a very ugly grip compared to everyone elses but it fits the palm like none I've ever shot. Accurate as can be, with a LIGHT trigger. Beautiful shooter.
1. S12175
2. Frame mounted pin. Copper???
3. Rim, yes and only one patent number on cylinder
4 1" push lever to release on right side
5. Address on top
6. Single action
7. Adjustable sights front and rear.
8. UGLY AS HELL Grip with a "schnoble" like know one elses....
Any help is appreciated,

Robert Hassenpflug
816-885-6022 cell

[jamesjo]

Robert,
Good looking Sportsman.
I am sure Jim will be along to comment, and provide you with info.
I just wanted to say that you aren't the only one with that style grip.
I guess H&R actually offered several styles as options back in the day.
Here is a picture of my brother's Single Action Sportsman.
I believe Jim originally estimated it as a 1936 model.
I have fired this revolver a little, and to me, it is extremely comfortable in the hand.

[Jim Hauff]

Robert,
Welcome to the forum.
Very nice pictures and complete info makes me happy - and easy to record in the data files.
Your SINGLE ACTION SPORTSMAN M199 is most likely a 2nd Variation and made sometime in 1934. My data base doesn't include a lot of info on the Single Action pieces, as yet, but as it grows, some confusion arises.
Your posting allows me to put down in writing some thoughts concerning this model, that have been circulating in my addled brain for a couple months - so please excuse the length of my answer - this is a research in progress thread, so it seems to be a good place to put "research" info, before I lose my notes and/or my mind.
When Bill Goforth and I began working on classification/variations of this model 199, we had very few examples to go by, primarily several pieces in my collection and a limited amount of company literature. The 1st Variation was clear - a "keyhole shaped" barrel and fixed front sight. Production of V1 began sometime after Oct. 1932, probably shortly after the introduction of the Double Action 999, with the same characteristics. The 2nd Variation was also clear - a "flat sided" tear drop shaped barrel, adjustable front sight (after April 1933) and with the safety rim on the cylinder and (mostly) one patent number on the cylinder. Production of this variation began, most likely, in early 1933. Bill then decided there was a 3rd Var. which was, as far as we can tell, merely a change in the size of the "font" of the cylinder stamp - the 3rd being quite a bit smaller than the 2nd. We couldn't come up with a "starting date" for this V3. The V2 and V3 may have co-existed - the cylinder stamp being simply the stamp chosen by the smith who finished the cylinder???????? In any case, the V3 was clearly supplanted by the 4th Variation after March of 1936, when two patent numbers were stamped on the cylinder. The first patent covered the "Rice frame" which allowed use of the "mono-grip" which is found in about 10 to 12 different configurations (the one on your gun, with the extended heel, is scarce). The second patent date covered the "safety rim" on the cylinder which began seeing use several years before the Patent for it was granted (in Mar. 1936). The 4th Var. also saw the change of the firing pin from the frame to the nose of the hammer - a major change in lock work seen in both the 999 and 199, although the then current evidence indicated that the firing pin location change was accomplished on the DA 999 in 1934(???). The V4 was in production up to/thru 1941. Bill's 5th Variation is a very limited production run during the years 1949 thru 1951, when the model disappears from the catalogues. This limited production will have serial numbers preceded by letter prefixes (1949 = 'J'; 1950 = 'K'; 1951 = 'L'. There are VERY few known examples with these letter codes. Intuition suggests these guns were assembled from pre-war parts. There is still some confusion concerning this model - I obviously need more data to fill in some gap - and your info helps quite a bit. Thanks.

[Roberthas]

Gentlemen, Thanks for the responses. I take it that the one final deciding issue must have been the "small" font on my cylinder? I like long explanations as much as you like complete info!. I have had to read and re-read several times.
Unfortunately I do not have anyone in my family tree that will love or respect these old guns that I have and would be a shame for me to pass them on to someone who may hock them for next to nothing.
I am going to post them on ********* someday when I can find a good "starting" price for them and let the dogs fight it out!. At least it will end up in the hands of someone who will love it properly.
I was jaw dropped yesterday when that "holy grail" of Sportsmans went for over $1500.00!!! Did you guys all see that one?
I have my eye on the new Springfield XDm in .45 with a 3.8" barrel and I'm hoping I may be able to get near the cost of one out of this.....
We will see. Thank you very much for your information. I am pleased at your extensive answer and glad you liked my info!

Robert Hassenpflug
816-885-6022 cell

[Roberthas]

oooops! I just saw that in my last post, I mention a website and it was replaced with asterisks. My apologies for having posted a NO-NO!

Robert

[Jim Hauff]

Robert,
Having posted that "NO-NO", you have broken "Robert's Rules of Order" and will be asked to leave the forum immediately. Just kidding, of course.

In the condition evident from your photos, I would tentatively grade your piece in the Good to Good+ condition (80+% finish remaining with a few worn spots and scratches to metal, and a chip in the grip) - in that condition, current RETAIL values for a 199 will run $300+, maybe as high as $375 on a good day, with the right exposure.

I and several of my H&R colleagues saw that Model 196 EUREKA auction on the site that shall not be named. I was ASTOUNDED. I'm currently in the process of re-doing the H&R Section for the "BLUE BOOK...." and will be including that in the new pricing guide for the 196, probably as a footnote not as a "regular" value. Simply incredible at what point some of the scarce and rare H&Rs are selling. I'm happy to see the increase, as it makes my collection worth that much more - it turns out to have been a good investment, at least today, when guns I bought years back have more than doubled in value.

[Roberthas]

WOW!. Nice collection of H&R Sportsmans. I bet you are thrilled to see the market activity. You have the Eureka just 5 digits away, and the Ultra. I have not seen mention of the Ultra version. I have found a lot of enjoyment researching these and other firearms.

Thank you so very much for your help and good luck with your collection.

Robert Hassenpflug
816-885-6022 cell

[Lanrezac]

Personally, I think collectors are looking for new things to collect. $1,525 seems like a lot to an H&R collector, but it is not much to a Luger, Broomhandle, Colt SAA, or Colt 1911 collector. For what would buy only a very run-of-the-mill specimen of one of those, they can have the best H&R ever made. And what they buy may turn out to be more special than they know, because H&R's have not been researched the way those other guns have - until you finish the book!

[Roberthas]

I agree with you completely. The H&Rs are still uncharted territory and a person has the chance to get some of the real gems as Jims collection shows. I have had a bunch of different and valuable guns and airguns. I like them ALL. This H&R pistol I have is a very enjoyable pistol. You couldn't ask for a better shooter, I just have gotten into the mode of trying to get rid of more stuff lately than collect. I had a buddy that asked me if there was anything I needed before he retired from the Marine Corps (we were in together, I got out after a little over ten), anyway, my response was a GALLON of CLP. He got it for me. It was then I knew I had way too much blueing to take care of and have been thinning the herd since...

Robert

[david coveno]

hi , i have an h&r sportsman,6 inch barrel, no model # on it. firing pin in frame double action ,has makers address on top of barrel,cylinder release is long rod on the side,fixed front sight,serial# is 1399. the big question is when was it made? how old?

thanx,

[Jim Hauff]

David,
It's a 1st Model 1st Variation. Made sometime between Oct. 1932 and probably end of March 1933.
A couple questions for you:
a. How is the front sight fixed in the barrel? Check pics: A, B or C
b. Does the cylinder have a raised rim around the back face?
c. Is the cylinder stamped: "PATENT APPLIED FOR"

[Jim Hauff]

It should look something like this one:

[david coveno]

thank you for getting back so fast!
it has front sight "a"
raised rim on cylinder
patent applied for
it also has 22 long rifle ctg. on it.
the grips are different than the picture though,it has dark wood and textured sides and back.

i love this gun, ihave wanted one since i first got my license to carry 20 years ago. i was looking at the website of a local gun shop and saw it listed under used guns.i swung by and looked at it. he wanted 295.00 but i talked him down to 260.00.i wonder if this gun was in mass its whole life?i live only 30 miles from the factory!

[Jim Hauff]

david,
Thanks for the additional info - it really helps and I've recorded it in my research data base. From that data - the configuration of your piece is very consistent with others in that s/n range and the rough date I gave you is valid - but it's probably closer to Jan. '33 production - more data, closer estimates.
The mono-grip on my example has, most likely, been sanded down, removing the checkering. The gip on your gun, as you describe it, sounds to be one of the four standard configs. used during that time period, so it should be original (American Black Walnut - select grade.)
I'm thinking you got a good deal on that gun - it's collectible as well as shootable. The only "drawback" is the fixed front sight. But POI/elevation impact can be regulated by choosing the correct bullet weight and velocity to bring you to center of target.
Nice gun - and thanks again for the information.

[bfips]

Jim, any info on manufacture date?

Sportsman Model 999 4" barrel
Serial Number HH003117
Firing Pin on frame -transfer bar
Cylinder has rim, NO patent number stampings anywhere
Manufacturer's address on left side of frame (H&R, GARDNER, MA)
Double Action
fixed front sight, pinned in slot

[Jim Hauff]

bfips,
Thanks for the info - data has been logged.
Your SPORTSMAN 999 was made in early 1994 - probably no later than mid Feb.
It has all the attributes expected from that era. It was made under the resurrected company (1991) known then as H&R 1871 Inc. We should probably call this the 4th model as some changes were made to the frame and grip. It appears that the 4" barrel, which was fairly uncommon between 1953 and 1986 and virtually unheard of between 1933 and 1952, was popular and probably in the majority by the time your gun was made.
It should be an accurate and fun shooter. Enjoy!
Merry Christmas

[bfips]

Jim, one note or mistake on my part. The front sight has a pin and an adjusting screws right above the muzzle. The pin appears to be the pivot for the adjusting screw. Bill

Originally Posted by Jim Hauff

bfips,
Thanks for the info - data has been logged.
Your SPORTSMAN 999 was made in early 1994 - probably no later than mid Feb.
It has all the attributes expected from that era. It was made under the resurrected company (1991) known then as H&R 1871 Inc. We should probably call this the 4th model as some changes were made to the frame and grip. It appears that the 4" barrel, which was fairly uncommon between 1953 and 1986 and virtually unheard of between 1933 and 1952, was popular and probably in the majority by the time your gun was made.
It should be an accurate and fun shooter. Enjoy!
Merry Christmas

[Jim Hauff]

Bill,
I caught that - that's the way it's supposed to be - so I just assumed......
Anyway thanks for the correction.

Merry Christmas

[MNgal]

1. Serial Number D64**
2. Firing pin mounted in frame (Hammer is flat)
3. Safety rim on cylinder? PATENT APPLIED FOR; one patent number; two patent numbers? Not sure what this means, but see photo.
4. Cylinder release: 1" long lever on right side
5. Location of Manufacturer's address - on top of barrel -
6. DA
7. Fixed front sight? Looks pinned in slot

Just bought today from a friend. They'd had it since new, but she had no info as was hubby's and he has passed.
Hope I answered everything right. Hoping to get more info on what I have. This gun is so easy to handle and smooth. Love it!
Looking forward to your info, and possilby what you think it's worth. Not selling, but hoping I didn't over pay.
Thanks!

[jamesjo]

Jim.
Yet another war year Sportsman!
They are coming out of the woodwork lately!!

MNgal

Good looking Sportsman!
resident expert Jim Hauff will give you the low down on it!
Jim

[Jim Hauff]

MNgal,
Welcome to the forum and thanks for the info and pics.
Your SPORTSMAN was made in the summer of 1933, it is a 1st Model 2nd Variation - from the pics and the "attributes" - flat sided barrel, frame mounted firing pin, safety rim on cylinder, 1" right side cylinder release lever. Your gun may have one PATENT number stamped on the cylinder between two of the flutes. The front sight is adjustable (from the position of the pin) - there will be an adjustment screw just below the front sight on the end of the barrel just above the barrel bore/muzzle.
It looks to be in very good+ condition - estimated RETAIL value in the condition observed is $300 to $350.
I have data on several pieces in the 6 thousand range. Having the full serial number of your piece would certainly help flesh out the data in this time frame. There were changes being made and I'd like to pin them down a bit more.

[jamesjo]

Jim,
I take it the D prefix denotes Double Action, and not 1943?
I bow to your knowledge of H&R's!!
JIm

[MNgal]

You are right, mine has that screw on the end of the gun, just as your D5552 has. So it is adjustable. Also, there is the one Patent number on cylinder, with the same patent # as the D5552.
Final number is 81 for your pinning down of things. It is in good shape, and I hadn't had time to clean it before taking the photos. Happy with the purchase, and so glad I found your site.
Thank you!

[Jim Hauff]

MNgal,
Thank you very much for filling in the other data - your piece is exactly what I would expect from that Mid 1933 production - looks like H&R had settled down on that config. as "typical", at least for another couple months to a year - then things start getting screwy again. Also thanks for the additional digits - they will come in very handy.
Don't be too agressive with the clean-up - you will find a very nice deep blue-black finish under the gunk. I have used FLITZ or METAL GLO paste polishes on over 600 handguns over the years and when I followed the directions and wasn't to iron handed, the results came out spectacularly. Use a soft cloth to apply and another to remove the dried/hazed polish - use circular motions where possible and a light touch. Take the grip off before you start clean-up.
Glad to help, glad you found this site with your valuable data and thanks for thanking.

[Jim Hauff]

JamesJo,
Jim - the wartime guns will have the small push button cylinder release on the left side. Yes, the 'D' in this case stands for 'Double Action' - it was only used for a year or two, from serial number ~D4000 to ~D29999. Data base is really starting to help out with dating and variation runs. NEED MORE DATA