Winchester Model 1890 22 short, First model - The Firearms Forum

kuhrt · 08-30-2011, 01:11 PM

I have a Winchester 1890, 22 short, first model. It appears to be in very good condition. The serial number is 676, probably manufactured in 1890. It has some kind of delux stock and different sights then I have seen on otherguns. I am looking any information I can get on the gun especially the value. I am interested in selling it. I have attached some pictures.

Jim K · 08-30-2011, 05:53 PM

That rifle was made in 1891. I think you have a very rare rifle there, and it looks original and almost new except where it would normally be handled for firing. I'll stick my neck out and say it is neither a restoration nor a gunsmith job and that the "schutzen" butt plate and tang sights are from the factory. I'll make a WAG at $20k, but will be happy to hear from others.

Jim

Jim Hauff · 08-30-2011, 06:03 PM

Not many (I can't think of seeing any, anywhere) of that model with the "GERMAN" style butt configuration, and I've seen a few of those of the years. I'm with Jim K on the valuation - but that of course means bringing it to the attention of the right collectors. National auction house would probably be the best place to put it before the public. VERY NICE item.

Bert H. · 08-30-2011, 09:22 PM

Hello,

The butt plate is the "Swiss" type, and the butt stock is also the "Swiss" style cheek piece. They were somewhat common on the Model 1885 Single Shot Rifle, especially the higher grades.

The front sight is a Winchester globe, and the rear sight is Mid-Range vernier. Both sights are very frequently found on the Model 1885 as well. The sights alone are worth $1000+

What bothers me is the plain "jane" slide handle stock in concert with that butt stock. Also, what is the odd looking color transition on the rear section of the butt stock? Can you post a clear close-up picture of just the butt stock?

Without a factory letter authenticating everything on that rifle (the sights and butt stock & butt plate), I would not get too excited about the potential value just yet. I highly recommend that you contact the Cody Firearms Museum research office and order a factory letter. The $60 will be well spent moeny if the rifle letters in its current configuration. If it does not letter, you have a $2500 rifle. If it does letter exactly, you have a $25000+ rifle.

Bert H.

kuhrt · 08-31-2011, 01:06 PM

Thanks you all for the information. I had no idea about this gun until I just recently started looking into it. I do not know when the rifle came into the family. I just know that my father had it since for as long as I can remember. I am posting a few more pictures of the stock.

Bert H. · 08-31-2011, 01:30 PM

Well now, that is bad news

The checkering on the butt stock is not factory original, most especially the odd looking pattern on the rear section. If the rifle letters with a Swiss cheek piece and Swiss butt plate, it is a terrible shame that someone defaced it by checkering it.

I have sent in a serial number research request to the CFM for your rifle... I will post the results when I receive them.

Bert H.

Jim K · 08-31-2011, 01:38 PM

Definitely get a factory letter. Anyone have any idea of the reason for the odd checkering on the buttstock (which I thought was a shadow in the first pics)? I have seen some odd positions used in target shooting in the late 1800's, and wonder if it could have some purpose other than decoration.

Jim

steve99f · 08-31-2011, 05:15 PM

The wood grain flow doesn't look like it matches on either side of the checking on the buttstock. Close though. Could be the photo or lighting I supose.

Nice rifle for sure.

Goody · 08-31-2011, 06:19 PM

It's gorgeous for sure!

Just wondering, though. How far did they used to shoot 22 shorts back in the day?

Jim K · 08-31-2011, 08:58 PM

That gun would probably have been used for indoor shooting at 50 feet. There might have been a companion center fire rifle, probably a single shot, with identical stock and sights for outdoor target shooting.

Jim

fishguts · 09-01-2011, 05:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve99f

The wood grain flow doesn't look like it matches on either side of the checking on the buttstock. Close though. Could be the photo or lighting I supose.

Nice rifle for sure.

i see what you mean steve, wonder if that could be a splice were someone added that fancy butplate piece and checkered to cover the seam? i also noticed in one of the pics were the wood looks diffrent in color also. but my god what a awsome rifle.

hrf · 09-01-2011, 06:54 AM

The grain of the cheek piece may also not match, and there appears to be a faint seam at the top of same. If these are alterations, very nice job, but the info Bert has sent for should tell.

Bert H. · 09-01-2011, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goody

It's gorgeous for sure!

Just wondering, though. How far did they used to shoot 22 shorts back in the day?

Believe it or not, they were shooting it 200 yards (off-hand) in the Schuetzen matches. Winchester built some exceptionally fine Model 1885 Schuetzen Rifles in .22 rimfire specifically for long-range match shooting.

Bert H.

Jim K · 09-01-2011, 10:26 AM

Thanks, Bert. I didn't know they were shooting .22s at that range at that time, though I did know that later .22 matches were fired at 100 yards with guns like the Winchester Model 52 and Remington 37.

Jim

Bert H. · 09-01-2011, 10:28 AM

This is what I received from Cody this morning;

Win. 1890, SN 676
Serial number applied: 2-6-1891
Date in: 2-12-1891
Type: Rifle
Caliber: 22 S
Date shipped: 2-14-1891
Order: 414

Based on the information above, the butt stock and butt plate are not factory original. The collector value is negatively affected by the lack of the original butt stock and butt plate, but that rifle still has a lot of value due to its otherwise excellent condition. I suspect that it is worth a minimum of $4500 if you can get it in front of a serious collector. The Swiss butt plate is worth a few hundred $$$ all by itself. The stock is not worth much at all.

Edit: Forgot to mention... the sights are not original to the rifle either, but they are worth at least $1,000 by all by themself, and they will not negatively affect the value of the rifle.

Bert H.

kuhrt · 09-01-2011, 03:16 PM

I had no idea this was such a good gun. I know it has been in our family for over 70 years. Have no idea when the stock would have been changed. Thanks Bert for checking with CFM. If I were to sell it how should I go about doing it?

Bert H. · 09-01-2011, 03:25 PM

I would list it on brandx, as there are lots of people who use that site.

Bert H.

08-30-2011, 01:11 PM	#1
kuhrt Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Lake Pleasant, NY Posts: 7	Winchester Model 1890 22 short, First model I have a Winchester 1890, 22 short, first model. It appears to be in very good condition. The serial number is 676, probably manufactured in 1890. It has some kind of delux stock and different sights then I have seen on otherguns. I am looking any information I can get on the gun especially the value. I am interested in selling it. I have attached some pictures. Attached Images -->

08-30-2011, 05:53 PM	#2
Jim K Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 6,408	Re: Winchester Model 1890 22 short, First model That rifle was made in 1891. I think you have a very rare rifle there, and it looks original and almost new except where it would normally be handled for firing. I'll stick my neck out and say it is neither a restoration nor a gunsmith job and that the "schutzen" butt plate and tang sights are from the factory. I'll make a WAG at $20k, but will be happy to hear from others. Jim

08-30-2011, 06:03 PM	#3
Jim Hauff Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Lehigh Valley, PA Posts: 2,980	Re: Winchester Model 1890 22 short, First model Not many (I can't think of seeing any, anywhere) of that model with the "GERMAN" style butt configuration, and I've seen a few of those of the years. I'm with Jim K on the valuation - but that of course means bringing it to the attention of the right collectors. National auction house would probably be the best place to put it before the public. VERY NICE item. __________________ Jim Hauff ~ H&R Collector In Memory of Bill Goforth and Jim Ritchie

08-30-2011, 09:22 PM	#4
Bert H. V.I.P. Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Washington State (Puget Sound Region) Posts: 409	Re: Winchester Model 1890 22 short, First model Hello, The butt plate is the "Swiss" type, and the butt stock is also the "Swiss" style cheek piece. They were somewhat common on the Model 1885 Single Shot Rifle, especially the higher grades. The front sight is a Winchester globe, and the rear sight is Mid-Range vernier. Both sights are very frequently found on the Model 1885 as well. The sights alone are worth $1000+ What bothers me is the plain "jane" slide handle stock in concert with that butt stock. Also, what is the odd looking color transition on the rear section of the butt stock? Can you post a clear close-up picture of just the butt stock? Without a factory letter authenticating everything on that rifle (the sights and butt stock & butt plate), I would not get too excited about the potential value just yet. I highly recommend that you contact the Cody Firearms Museum research office and order a factory letter. The $60 will be well spent moeny if the rifle letters in its current configuration. If it does not letter, you have a $2500 rifle. If it does letter exactly, you have a $25000+ rifle. Bert H. __________________ Real Men own and shoot a Winchester SINGLE-SHOT! Last edited by Bert H.; 08-30-2011 at 09:27 PM..

08-31-2011, 01:06 PM	#5
kuhrt Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Lake Pleasant, NY Posts: 7	Re: Winchester Model 1890 22 short, First model Thanks you all for the information. I had no idea about this gun until I just recently started looking into it. I do not know when the rifle came into the family. I just know that my father had it since for as long as I can remember. I am posting a few more pictures of the stock. Attached Images

08-31-2011, 01:30 PM	#6
Bert H. V.I.P. Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Washington State (Puget Sound Region) Posts: 409	Re: Winchester Model 1890 22 short, First model Well now, that is bad news The checkering on the butt stock is not factory original, most especially the odd looking pattern on the rear section. If the rifle letters with a Swiss cheek piece and Swiss butt plate, it is a terrible shame that someone defaced it by checkering it. I have sent in a serial number research request to the CFM for your rifle... I will post the results when I receive them. Bert H. __________________ Real Men own and shoot a Winchester SINGLE-SHOT! Last edited by Bert H.; 08-31-2011 at 01:35 PM..

08-31-2011, 01:38 PM	#7
Jim K Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 6,408	Re: Winchester Model 1890 22 short, First model Definitely get a factory letter. Anyone have any idea of the reason for the odd checkering on the buttstock (which I thought was a shadow in the first pics)? I have seen some odd positions used in target shooting in the late 1800's, and wonder if it could have some purpose other than decoration. Jim

08-31-2011, 05:15 PM	#8
steve99f V.I.P. Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Eastern PA Posts: 269	Re: Winchester Model 1890 22 short, First model The wood grain flow doesn't look like it matches on either side of the checking on the buttstock. Close though. Could be the photo or lighting I supose. Nice rifle for sure.

08-31-2011, 06:19 PM	#9
Goody V.I.P. Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 333	Re: Winchester Model 1890 22 short, First model It's gorgeous for sure! Just wondering, though. How far did they used to shoot 22 shorts back in the day?

08-31-2011, 08:58 PM	#10
Jim K Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 6,408	Re: Winchester Model 1890 22 short, First model That gun would probably have been used for indoor shooting at 50 feet. There might have been a companion center fire rifle, probably a single shot, with identical stock and sights for outdoor target shooting. Jim

09-01-2011, 06:54 AM	#12
hrf Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 2,276	Re: Winchester Model 1890 22 short, First model The grain of the cheek piece may also not match, and there appears to be a faint seam at the top of same. If these are alterations, very nice job, but the info Bert has sent for should tell.

09-01-2011, 10:26 AM	#14
Jim K Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 6,408	Re: Winchester Model 1890 22 short, First model Thanks, Bert. I didn't know they were shooting .22s at that range at that time, though I did know that later .22 matches were fired at 100 yards with guns like the Winchester Model 52 and Remington 37. Jim

09-01-2011, 10:28 AM	#15
Bert H. V.I.P. Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Washington State (Puget Sound Region) Posts: 409	Re: Winchester Model 1890 22 short, First model This is what I received from Cody this morning; Win. 1890, SN 676 Serial number applied: 2-6-1891 Date in: 2-12-1891 Type: Rifle Caliber: 22 S Date shipped: 2-14-1891 Order: 414 Based on the information above, the butt stock and butt plate are not factory original. The collector value is negatively affected by the lack of the original butt stock and butt plate, but that rifle still has a *lot* of value due to its otherwise excellent condition. I suspect that it is worth a minimum of $4500 if you can get it in front of a serious collector. The Swiss butt plate is worth a few hundred $$$ all by itself. The stock is not worth much at all. Edit: Forgot to mention... the sights are not original to the rifle either, but they are worth at least $1,000 by all by themself, and they will not negatively affect the value of the rifle. Bert H. __________________ Real Men own and shoot a Winchester SINGLE-SHOT! Last edited by Bert H.; 09-01-2011 at 10:32 AM..

09-01-2011, 03:16 PM	#16
kuhrt Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Lake Pleasant, NY Posts: 7	Re: Winchester Model 1890 22 short, First model I had no idea this was such a good gun. I know it has been in our family for over 70 years. Have no idea when the stock would have been changed. Thanks Bert for checking with CFM. If I were to sell it how should I go about doing it?

09-01-2011, 03:25 PM	#17
Bert H. V.I.P. Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Washington State (Puget Sound Region) Posts: 409	Re: Winchester Model 1890 22 short, First model I would list it on brandx, as there are lots of people who use that site. Bert H. __________________ Real Men own and shoot a Winchester SINGLE-SHOT!