More caliber questions - The Firearms Forum

Gun Geezer · 08-31-2011, 05:07 PM

I was watching the history channel this afternoon and they had a program on bullets. They talked about the different calibers and their effectiveness. It was generally agreed that the .45 was the most effective rnd. for stopping a threat without over penetration. However, they said that the .45's recoil had a great effect on the shooters ability to hit a target because they always anticipated the recoil and jerked the gun off target. The .40 caliber was supposedly produced to be nearly as effective as the .45 but without the perceived recoil problem. The only caliber I don't have a representative firearm in, is .40. I figured I had too many different calibers now and didn't want to introduce yet another one. I've never fired one. Am I missing something here?

permafrost · 08-31-2011, 05:36 PM

I personally don't care for the 40 recoil. it may be a little less than the 45, but it's very sharp and snappy. I couldn't get used to it like the 45. After shooting the 45 for a while it just seems to get easier and easier to handle. Any handgun can make you apprehensive of the recoil. That's a personal problem, to be overcome,not a failing of the 45..Just my personal thoughts.

Diamondback · 08-31-2011, 07:10 PM

My stepson has a S&W .40 for a carry gun. I have a Taurus 1911. Earlier this year he was trying to teach his wife to shoot the S&W. I noticed that she was flinching badly every time she pulled the trigger. The S&W has a very sharp heavy recoil that is difficult to control. I convinced her to try the 1911. She was very surprised to find that the 1911 had less felt recoil and was soon able to hit the target reasonably well. The difference is in the weight of the pistols and in the barrel linkage. The S&W is a straight blowback, while the 1911 is, of course, a delayed blowback. I'll take the .45, thank you very much.

woolleyworm · 08-31-2011, 07:40 PM

I'm in 100% agreeance with the above posts; a 40SW is IMO the worst recoil to deal with in a "standard" gun. My daughter shot her first 1911 when she was 12 and she had no problem going back for another magazine full. I got rid of my XD40sc a few years back and have not regretted it one bit. The XD's are great guns, but it wasn't a gun issue so much as the 40 just wasn't a caliber that I found useful enough to deal with.

JLA · 08-31-2011, 08:30 PM

I too agree. Practice is the key to overcoming any problem with shooting. Its not the weapons fault. Its the shooters. The weapon is merely a machine waiting to be mastered.

CampingJosh · 08-31-2011, 08:52 PM

The .40 S&W has a reduced level of recoil compared to its parent cartridge, the 10mm Auto. I don't think it is reduced compared to the .45 ACP.

In a full sized gun, I have never thought the .45 was particularly harsh.

Jim K · 08-31-2011, 09:22 PM

Since the History Channel pictured an SKS-46 and an AK-47 in a show about Bonnie and Clyde, I don't rely on them for any correct or valid information on guns. (Or much else.)

Jim

Gun Geezer · 09-01-2011, 11:27 AM

Thanks for the replies. I had forgotten to mention they had also noted that the .38 special rnd. was standard leo issue for many years but reportedly had issues stopping the threat. They then came out with the .357 mag. which introduced the problem of over-penetration. They didn't say much about .9mm though. I personally like the 9mm strictly from the standpoint of capacity, weight and low recoil in all but plastic sub-compacts. Since I have yet to fire one in self-defense, I can't speak about its threat-stopping capabilities.

This helps with my decision not to go with .40 cal., but as far as the perfect self-defense rnd., not so much.

carver · 09-01-2011, 11:34 AM

Yeah, there pretty much is no such thing as the perfect SD round. Pistols lack the stopping power of a rifle. You choose what works best for you. I also have never shot the .40, and don't have a need to add one to my collection, I already have the best, IMHO, the .45ACP.

JLA · 09-01-2011, 11:35 AM

The perfect self defence round IMO is the one that you are 100% confident you can put into the breadbasket of an attacker under duress.

I personally favor the .45ACP. A good test to see if you can control the weapon under stress is to make a mad dash to the 50 yd target backer and back as fast as you can run it, and once back to the bench, draw your CCW and fire into the B27 silhouette at 15 yds and see how many in the 8 ring you've got. That will give you a real glimpse into what youre capable of under stress. And practicing is the only way to improve..

carver · 09-01-2011, 12:07 PM

+1 though I can't run!

Gun Geezer · 09-01-2011, 04:22 PM

I haven't tried running since I had both my hips replaced. Maybe tomorrow.

JLA · 09-01-2011, 05:20 PM

You dont have to run.. just get yourself unfit to shoot accurately. I just find being out of breath with a high heart rate does it best..

Sandman · 09-02-2011, 01:15 PM

I have a Taurus .40 that does not have a bad recoil. It is actually a pretty nice shooter, when it shoots...

The Duke · 09-02-2011, 04:17 PM

Para Ord., 1911, 230g FMJ...5 out of 5 soda pop cans at 7 yards..Grandson, age 7...There aient no steenking recoil.

He like the M9 also...

But you really want to see a grin...

..Let him sling some lead downrange with something fully automatic...Shown here with an UZI..

Big Shrek · 09-06-2011, 02:44 AM

Groan...I seem to remember recently a 9-yr old shooting himself dead at a Range Day with a mini-uzi on full auto...

Kids & Full-auto, just don't mix...sooner or later something will go horribly wrong...

Famous last words...Hey y'all, watchis!!

Old Grump · 09-06-2011, 07:38 AM

Son at 12 and daughter at 11 both shot expert with my 1911A1 NM pistol in 45 ACP. I guess I forgot to teach them how to jerk the gun to anticipate recoil.

When I last shot with the local police at the range Todd, the asst. chief of police was running 2 of his new members and one vet through their annual qualifications. I shot their Glock in 40, they shot my 45 and both my 357 and 41 mag revolvers. Those that shot good with the 40 cal also shot good with my guns and vice versa. If they were having troubles with the Glock they had trouble with the other guns too. Way to much emphasis made on caliber and power and not nearly enough on fundamentals.

One youngster did mention that the 41 was a bit much, he was also the only one of the group who was a city kid and not a farm boy.

If I see it on TV I have to start shaking the salt over everything they say.

brad87 · 09-11-2011, 05:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Shrek

Groan...I seem to remember recently a 9-yr old shooting himself dead at a Range Day with a mini-uzi on full auto...

Kids & Full-auto, just don't mix...sooner or later something will go horribly wrong...

Famous last words...Hey y'all, watchis!!

I was 6 when I shot my first full auto. Was a BREN gun (thats the SMG, yeah? Not the drum on top rifle, I'm pretty sure thats the STEN) and I had my dad stand behind me because the stock was too long so i had to tuck it under my arm, and i didnt want to fall over. Yes, I asked HIM to stand behind ME. I shot an uzi pistol not long after and surprised all the guys at the match because I was the only one to manage to squeeze off 2 round bursts, and therefore was shooting them into oblivion with it because I could keep all my shots inside the C ring. The only full auto I was not allowed to shoot belonged to a guy who wasn't a regular at the matches and hadn't seen me shoot all the others, and he said if I had a couple more years on me he would have let me. I shot more full auto's before the age of 10 than most shoot in their lives.

jack404 · 09-11-2011, 05:14 AM

sten has the mag on the left side , bren had a banana mag on top

lewis gun had the drum on top

my great Uncle at Tobruk

25 lbs with a full clip if i remember , i trained with one and the GPMG M60 back when

cpttango30 · 09-11-2011, 09:37 AM

The recoil of the 9mm and 40 to me is harder to me than that of a 45acp.

If you're shooting standard loads The 45 is more of a push and the 9mm and 40 are more of a snap.

45Auto · 09-11-2011, 11:41 AM

The late Jeff Cooper was a great advocate of the .45 M1911. However, he advised shooters to outfit themselves with only as much power as they could effectively shoot in a combat situation.

user · 08-05-2012, 08:52 AM

All good reports. However, the big, heavy, slow-moving .45 ACP has a very steep trajectory, so you have to be really good at estimating the elevation adjustment if the target is moving towards you or away from you. Terrific for shooting stationary pieces of paper on a range. At the other end of the spectrum, the .357 magnum (particularly with a 125 grain bullet) has a pretty flat trajectory but way too much flash-bang-recoil. Commercially available 9mm and .38 spc. have relatively flat trajectories and sufficient kinetic energy at fifty yards to crush human bone, so under normal circumstances are more than adequate at normal defensive range. Unless the target is wearing body armor or a piece of a boiler under his poncho, those will work pretty well. Optimizing for any particular attribute results in impairment in other attributes. Study the ballistics charts for the brands and loads you're interested in and pick the compromise that suits your purposes.

Old Grump · 08-05-2012, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by user

All good reports. However, the big, heavy, slow-moving .45 ACP has a very steep trajectory, so you have to be really good at estimating the elevation adjustment if the target is moving towards you or away from you.

9" drop at 100 yards, anybody can do it, just need to pay attention to the basics of grip, breath, sights, trigger.

permafrost · 08-05-2012, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old Grump

9" drop at 100 yards, anybody can do it, just need to pay attention to the basics of grip, breath, sights, trigger.

great shooting' Grump!

ignats · 08-05-2012, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diamondback

The difference is in the weight of the pistols and in the barrel linkage. The S&W is a straight blowback, while the 1911 is, of course, a delayed blowback. I'll take the .45, thank you very much.

The 1911 whether it be Colt or clone is a short recoil operated pistol. I don't know which S&W pistol you were shooting but the S&W Military & Police is also a short recoil pistol. It can be had in .22, 9mm, .357 Sig and .45 ACP. The full size version with 5" bbl weighs 26 ounces. The 40 S&W version is 24 ounces. The Colt unloaded weight is 2lb 7 ounces or 39 ounces. (Series 70 Colt). That's 15 ounces heavier than the S&W and that is what I think most people are feeling, the apparent recoil.

The energy from the 40 S&W is fairly close to the .45 ACP. I converted a Super 38 (that had been converted to .38 wadcutter) to .40 S&W by buying a barrel from Fusion. It was pretty much a drop in and works fine. Fun to shoot too.

.40 S&W
Velocity Mass Energy
1140 155 446.8456078
980 165 351.5217391
1000 180 399.2901508

.45 ACP
Velocity Mass Energy
1140 165 475.6743567
950 185 370.3693434
890 230 404.1326531

08-31-2011, 05:07 PM	#1
Gun Geezer Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Central Florida Posts: 1,710	More caliber questions I was watching the history channel this afternoon and they had a program on bullets. They talked about the different calibers and their effectiveness. It was generally agreed that the .45 was the most effective rnd. for stopping a threat without over penetration. However, they said that the .45's recoil had a great effect on the shooters ability to hit a target because they always anticipated the recoil and jerked the gun off target. The .40 caliber was supposedly produced to be nearly as effective as the .45 but without the perceived recoil problem. The only caliber I don't have a representative firearm in, is .40. I figured I had too many different calibers now and didn't want to introduce yet another one. I've never fired one. Am I missing something here? -->

08-31-2011, 05:36 PM	#2
permafrost Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Oklahoma, USA Contributor Posts: 1,771	Re: More caliber questions I personally don't care for the 40 recoil. it may be a little less than the 45, but it's very sharp and snappy. I couldn't get used to it like the 45. After shooting the 45 for a while it just seems to get easier and easier to handle. Any handgun can make you apprehensive of the recoil. That's a personal problem, to be overcome,not a failing of the 45..Just my personal thoughts. __________________ Stand and Fight Last edited by permafrost; 08-31-2011 at 05:40 PM..

08-31-2011, 07:10 PM	#3
Diamondback Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Silver City, Oklahoma Posts: 661	Re: More caliber questions My stepson has a S&W .40 for a carry gun. I have a Taurus 1911. Earlier this year he was trying to teach his wife to shoot the S&W. I noticed that she was flinching badly every time she pulled the trigger. The S&W has a very sharp heavy recoil that is difficult to control. I convinced her to try the 1911. She was very surprised to find that the 1911 had less felt recoil and was soon able to hit the target reasonably well. The difference is in the weight of the pistols and in the barrel linkage. The S&W is a straight blowback, while the 1911 is, of course, a delayed blowback. I'll take the .45, thank you very much.

08-31-2011, 07:40 PM	#4
woolleyworm TFF Moderator/Host Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: SW Fort Worth Contributor Posts: 4,883	Re: More caliber questions I'm in 100% agreeance with the above posts; a 40SW is IMO the worst recoil to deal with in a "standard" gun. My daughter shot her first 1911 when she was 12 and she had no problem going back for another magazine full. I got rid of my XD40sc a few years back and have not regretted it one bit. The XD's are great guns, but it wasn't a gun issue so much as the 40 just wasn't a caliber that I found useful enough to deal with. __________________ . What are you gonna do, talk the alien to death? -- (on Sigourney Weaver's worry about Guns in Aliens) "Safety is something that happens between your ears, not something you hold in your hands." "I carry a small gun to compensate for my huge Blue press." .

08-31-2011, 08:30 PM	#5
JLA TFF Moderator/Host Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Heart Of Texas Contributor Posts: 17,318	Re: More caliber questions I too agree. Practice is the key to overcoming any problem with shooting. Its not the weapons fault. Its the shooters. The weapon is merely a machine waiting to be mastered. __________________ It takes 43 muscles to frown, 17 to smile, and 3 for proper trigger squeeze. The latest caliber or gear is no substitute for experience and skill. Rifles and cartridges don't make hits -- shooters do. Fact of life: After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says WTF!

08-31-2011, 08:52 PM	#6
CampingJosh TFF Moderator/Host Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Indiana Contributor Posts: 4,788	Re: More caliber questions The .40 S&W has a reduced level of recoil compared to its parent cartridge, the 10mm Auto. I don't think it is reduced compared to the .45 ACP. In a full sized gun, I have never thought the .45 was particularly harsh. __________________ Nothing posted on TheFirearmsForum.com constitutes legal, accounting, gunsmithing, or other professional advice. Readers are encouraged to consult with qualified professionals for real advice. Your life is lived at your own risk. Don't blame me for the dumb things you do.

08-31-2011, 09:22 PM	#7
Jim K Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 6,408	Re: More caliber questions Since the History Channel pictured an SKS-46 and an AK-47 in a show about Bonnie and Clyde, I don't rely on them for any correct or valid information on guns. (Or much else.) Jim

09-01-2011, 11:27 AM	#8
Gun Geezer Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Central Florida Posts: 1,710	Re: More caliber questions Thanks for the replies. I had forgotten to mention they had also noted that the .38 special rnd. was standard leo issue for many years but reportedly had issues stopping the threat. They then came out with the .357 mag. which introduced the problem of over-penetration. They didn't say much about .9mm though. I personally like the 9mm strictly from the standpoint of capacity, weight and low recoil in all but plastic sub-compacts. Since I have yet to fire one in self-defense, I can't speak about its threat-stopping capabilities. This helps with my decision not to go with .40 cal., but as far as the perfect self-defense rnd., not so much.

09-01-2011, 11:34 AM	#9
carver TFF Moderator/Host Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: DAV, Deep in the Pineywoods of East Texas, just west of Shreveport, LA Contributor Posts: 11,266	Re: More caliber questions Yeah, there pretty much is no such thing as the perfect SD round. Pistols lack the stopping power of a rifle. You choose what works best for you. I also have never shot the .40, and don't have a need to add one to my collection, I already have the best, IMHO, the .45ACP. __________________ Y'all be safe now, ya hear! Lamentations Chapter 5: 1. Remember, O LORD, what is come upon us: consider, and behold our reproach. 2. Our inheritance is turned to strangers, our houses to aliens. 3. We are orphans and fatherless, our mothers [are] as widows. 5. Our necks [are] under persecution: we labour, [and] have no rest. 16. The crown is fallen [from] our head: woe unto us, that we have sinned! 21. Turn thou us unto thee, O LORD, and we shall be turned; renew our days as of old.

09-01-2011, 11:35 AM	#10
JLA TFF Moderator/Host Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Heart Of Texas Contributor Posts: 17,318	Re: More caliber questions The perfect self defence round IMO is the one that you are 100% confident you can put into the breadbasket of an attacker under duress. I personally favor the .45ACP. A good test to see if you can control the weapon under stress is to make a mad dash to the 50 yd target backer and back as fast as you can run it, and once back to the bench, draw your CCW and fire into the B27 silhouette at 15 yds and see how many in the 8 ring you've got. That will give you a real glimpse into what youre capable of under stress. And practicing is the only way to improve.. __________________ It takes 43 muscles to frown, 17 to smile, and 3 for proper trigger squeeze. The latest caliber or gear is no substitute for experience and skill. Rifles and cartridges don't make hits -- shooters do. Fact of life: After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says WTF!

09-01-2011, 12:07 PM	#11
carver TFF Moderator/Host Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: DAV, Deep in the Pineywoods of East Texas, just west of Shreveport, LA Contributor Posts: 11,266	Re: More caliber questions +1 though I can't run! __________________ Y'all be safe now, ya hear! Lamentations Chapter 5: 1. Remember, O LORD, what is come upon us: consider, and behold our reproach. 2. Our inheritance is turned to strangers, our houses to aliens. 3. We are orphans and fatherless, our mothers [are] as widows. 5. Our necks [are] under persecution: we labour, [and] have no rest. 16. The crown is fallen [from] our head: woe unto us, that we have sinned! 21. Turn thou us unto thee, O LORD, and we shall be turned; renew our days as of old.

09-01-2011, 04:22 PM	#12
Gun Geezer Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Central Florida Posts: 1,710	Re: More caliber questions I haven't tried running since I had both my hips replaced. Maybe tomorrow.

09-01-2011, 05:20 PM	#13
JLA TFF Moderator/Host Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Heart Of Texas Contributor Posts: 17,318	Re: More caliber questions You dont have to run.. just get yourself unfit to shoot accurately. I just find being out of breath with a high heart rate does it best.. __________________ It takes 43 muscles to frown, 17 to smile, and 3 for proper trigger squeeze. The latest caliber or gear is no substitute for experience and skill. Rifles and cartridges don't make hits -- shooters do. Fact of life: After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says WTF!

09-02-2011, 01:15 PM	#14
Sandman Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Louisiana Posts: 552	Re: More caliber questions I have a Taurus .40 that does not have a bad recoil. It is actually a pretty nice shooter, when it shoots...

09-02-2011, 04:17 PM	#15
The Duke Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: NW Louisiana Posts: 813	Re: More caliber questions Para Ord., 1911, 230g FMJ...5 out of 5 soda pop cans at 7 yards..Grandson, age 7...There aient no steenking recoil. He like the M9 also... But you really want to see a grin.....Let him sling some lead downrange with something fully automatic...Shown here with an UZI..

09-06-2011, 02:44 AM	#16
Big Shrek Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: NorthWest Florida Posts: 923	Re: More caliber questions Groan...I seem to remember recently a 9-yr old shooting himself dead at a Range Day with a mini-uzi on full auto... Kids & Full-auto, just don't mix...sooner or later something will go horribly wrong... Famous last words...Hey y'all, watchis!! __________________ Marlin Specialist Calico Specialist A gun should be a tool in the hands of a deadly weapon, not a deadly weapon in the hands of a tool.

09-06-2011, 07:38 AM	#17
Old Grump Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Little hut in the woods near Blue River Wisconsin Posts: 2,289	Re: More caliber questions Son at 12 and daughter at 11 both shot expert with my 1911A1 NM pistol in 45 ACP. I guess I forgot to teach them how to jerk the gun to anticipate recoil. When I last shot with the local police at the range Todd, the asst. chief of police was running 2 of his new members and one vet through their annual qualifications. I shot their Glock in 40, they shot my 45 and both my 357 and 41 mag revolvers. Those that shot good with the 40 cal also shot good with my guns and vice versa. If they were having troubles with the Glock they had trouble with the other guns too. Way to much emphasis made on caliber and power and not nearly enough on fundamentals. One youngster did mention that the 41 was a bit much, he was also the only one of the group who was a city kid and not a farm boy. If I see it on TV I have to start shaking the salt over everything they say. __________________ "When once a republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil."~~- Thomas Jefferson Roman Catholic, Life Member of American Legion, VFW, Wisconsin Libertarian party, Wi-FORCE, WGO, NRA, JPFO, GOA, SAFand CCRKBA Last edited by Old Grump; 09-06-2011 at 07:39 AM..

09-11-2011, 05:14 AM	#19
jack404 Former Guest Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Australia Contributor Posts: 17,622	Re: More caliber questions sten has the mag on the left side , bren had a banana mag on top lewis gun had the drum on top my great Uncle at Tobruk 25 lbs with a full clip if i remember , i trained with one and the GPMG M60 back when Last edited by jack404; 09-11-2011 at 05:18 AM..

09-11-2011, 09:37 AM	#20
cpttango30 Former Guest Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Stafford, VA Contributor Posts: 3,071	Re: More caliber questions The recoil of the 9mm and 40 to me is harder to me than that of a 45acp. If you're shooting standard loads The 45 is more of a push and the 9mm and 40 are more of a snap.

09-11-2011, 11:41 AM	#21
45Auto Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 1,119	Re: More caliber questions The late Jeff Cooper was a great advocate of the .45 M1911. However, he advised shooters to outfit themselves with only as much power as they could effectively shoot in a combat situation.

08-05-2012, 08:52 AM	#22
user Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Northern piedmont of Va. and Middle of Nowhere, West Virginia Posts: 1,013	Re: More caliber questions All good reports. However, the big, heavy, slow-moving .45 ACP has a very steep trajectory, so you have to be really good at estimating the elevation adjustment if the target is moving towards you or away from you. Terrific for shooting stationary pieces of paper on a range. At the other end of the spectrum, the .357 magnum (particularly with a 125 grain bullet) has a pretty flat trajectory but way too much flash-bang-recoil. Commercially available 9mm and .38 spc. have relatively flat trajectories and sufficient kinetic energy at fifty yards to crush human bone, so under normal circumstances are more than adequate at normal defensive range. Unless the target is wearing body armor or a piece of a boiler under his poncho, those will work pretty well. Optimizing for any particular attribute results in impairment in other attributes. Study the ballistics charts for the brands and loads you're interested in and pick the compromise that suits your purposes. __________________ ===== Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.