Simeon North 1822 percussion with Octagon Barrel? - The Firearms Forum

ssmdive · 10-04-2011, 09:58 PM

Simeon North 1822 percussion with Octagon Barrel?

I *think* it is an U.S. Model 1819 Flintlock Pistol converted to percussion. But I do not know antique firearms.

On the Right side behind the hammer it says "1822"
In front of the hammer (covered slightly when down) it has "S.NORTH." on a downward curve over an Eagle and Shield motif. The Eagle/Shield flanked on one side by "U" and on the other by "S". "MIDLTN CONN." is stamped in an upward curve below the eagle.

On the right side about an inch front of the metal, it looks like an 1/8th wide of an inch cut has been filled in by a wood piece. (Looks like it was where the metal spring was that held a barrel band).

On the left side "LS" in an oval behind the side plate.

The barrel seems to be about 11 1/8 inches long. The first 4 1/2" is octagonal, the remaining barrel is round. It looks to have 7 grooves in the bore, I can't tell if it is rifled. Seems about 3/8th inch bore.

One flat section left of the top of the barrel across from the percussion nipple is "V" with a line under it and then a "P" under that.
One flat section left of that and a bit forward is an "R"

So, am I correct that this is a U.S. Model 1819 Flintlock Pistol converted to percussion? And that during the conversion the lower part of the frame was cut down and the metal spring section filled. And that the barrel was changed over?

Was 1822 the date of manufacture?
Any idea who and when the conversion was done?
Any idea on value?

rhmc24 · 10-05-2011, 07:55 AM

It is probably the remains of a North. The barrel has been drastically modified or probably replaced. The 1822 date is probably date of mfg. Reconversion by anonymous gunsmith 1830s-40s. Value mostly for parts or as a restoration project, to me $2-300. See below for what the complete gun looks like at Collectors Firearms.
http://collectorsfirearms.com/admin/...p?itemID=29646

ssmdive · 10-05-2011, 08:59 AM

Do you have a good site to buy antique firearms?
This was my first purchase.
Cause if this is 2-300 bucks.... I over paid. I gave 800. They have a return policy if I can validate the price.

rhmc24 · 10-05-2011, 09:16 AM

As I said 2-300 to me as a restorer. I'm no longer doing it but I was into for 40 years. No I don't have anyone to recco as a seller other than collectorsfirearms.com. Their prices are retail but an honest dealer. I don't know exactly what you mean by 'validate the price' - if it means find another one like it as a price guide, it is probably a lost cause. No advertizing dealer on the internet is likely to offer such a piece in that condition to compare with.

As a restorer, I would have bought it in its current condition expecting to put another $1-200 in it for parts and another $500 my work and have a $12-1500 piece for my collection or to trade or sell.

You might do a google search for antique gun dealers and get some leads to follow up. You can offer pix of yours to get an offer. You might get more than my number but likely a lot less than yours. Hope this helps.

Hawg · 10-05-2011, 11:01 AM

It's been butchered up too much to have any collector value. You might get 400 out of it but like RHMC said 200-300 is a more realistic price.

Jim K · 10-05-2011, 03:22 PM

To add a bit, FWIW. The lockplate, though converted, is original, as are the trigger guard, trigger, and rear of the stock. The inspector's mark is correct for the original gun; LS was Luther Sage, a Springfield Armory sub-inspector. The rifled barrel and the bolster are not original, nor is the hammer, and the foreend of the stock has been cut down. The conversion was not done by an armory or under military contract; it is a gunsmith job.

The slot behind the hammer was for a sliding safety, now gone; the Model 1819 was, AFAIK, the only U.S. flint or percussion military pistol to have a safety.

Just another case of someone making an up-to-date gun out of a piece of military surplus junk.

Jim

ssmdive · 10-12-2011, 03:46 PM

Would it be worth getting this into firing condition, or should I just leave it alone?

If I am going to get it into firing condition.... Where can I find some guidance?

If I should just leave it alone.... What should I do to preserve it?

Jim K · 10-12-2011, 06:36 PM

The problem with a gun like that is that its integrity has already been altered and no one knows how or how well the work was done, so I don't recommend firing it. I would swab out the barrel with a good penetrant, use the same on any active rust, then oil or lightly grease the metal parts, put some furniture polish on the wood, and hang it on the wall. Stories about your five times great grandfather using it to shoot Indians will be up to you.

Jim

10-04-2011, 09:58 PM	#1
ssmdive Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 3	Simeon North 1822 percussion with Octagon Barrel? Simeon North 1822 percussion with Octagon Barrel? I think it is an U.S. Model 1819 Flintlock Pistol converted to percussion. But I do not know antique firearms. On the Right side behind the hammer it says "1822" In front of the hammer (covered slightly when down) it has "S.NORTH." on a downward curve over an Eagle and Shield motif. The Eagle/Shield flanked on one side by "U" and on the other by "S". "MIDLTN CONN." is stamped in an upward curve below the eagle. On the right side about an inch front of the metal, it looks like an 1/8th wide of an inch cut has been filled in by a wood piece. (Looks like it was where the metal spring was that held a barrel band). On the left side "LS" in an oval behind the side plate. The barrel seems to be about 11 1/8 inches long. The first 4 1/2" is octagonal, the remaining barrel is round. It looks to have 7 grooves in the bore, I can't tell if it is rifled. Seems about 3/8th inch bore. One flat section left of the top of the barrel across from the percussion nipple is "V" with a line under it and then a "P" under that. One flat section left of that and a bit forward is an "R" So, am I correct that this is a U.S. Model 1819 Flintlock Pistol converted to percussion? And that during the conversion the lower part of the frame was cut down and the metal spring section filled. And that the barrel was changed over? Was 1822 the date of manufacture? Any idea who and when the conversion was done? Any idea on value? Attached Images --> Last edited by ssmdive; 10-05-2011 at 08:57 AM..

10-05-2011, 07:55 AM	#2
rhmc24 Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Ardmore, OK Posts: 525	Re: Simeon North 1822 percussion with Octagon Barrel? It is probably the remains of a North. The barrel has been drastically modified or probably replaced. The 1822 date is probably date of mfg. Reconversion by anonymous gunsmith 1830s-40s. Value mostly for parts or as a restoration project, to me $2-300. See below for what the complete gun looks like at Collectors Firearms. http://collectorsfirearms.com/admin/...p?itemID=29646

10-05-2011, 08:59 AM	#3
ssmdive Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 3	Re: Simeon North 1822 percussion with Octagon Barrel? Do you have a good site to buy antique firearms? This was my first purchase. Cause if this is 2-300 bucks.... I over paid. I gave 800. They have a return policy if I can validate the price. Attached Images Last edited by ssmdive; 10-05-2011 at 09:10 AM..

10-05-2011, 09:16 AM	#4
rhmc24 Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Ardmore, OK Posts: 525	Re: Simeon North 1822 percussion with Octagon Barrel? As I said 2-300 to me as a restorer. I'm no longer doing it but I was into for 40 years. No I don't have anyone to recco as a seller other than collectorsfirearms.com. Their prices are retail but an honest dealer. I don't know exactly what you mean by 'validate the price' - if it means find another one like it as a price guide, it is probably a lost cause. No advertizing dealer on the internet is likely to offer such a piece in that condition to compare with. As a restorer, I would have bought it in its current condition expecting to put another $1-200 in it for parts and another $500 my work and have a $12-1500 piece for my collection or to trade or sell. You might do a google search for antique gun dealers and get some leads to follow up. You can offer pix of yours to get an offer. You might get more than my number but likely a lot less than yours. Hope this helps. Last edited by rhmc24; 10-05-2011 at 09:19 AM..

10-05-2011, 11:01 AM	#5
Hawg Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 1,558	Re: Simeon North 1822 percussion with Octagon Barrel? It's been butchered up too much to have any collector value. You might get 400 out of it but like RHMC said 200-300 is a more realistic price.

10-05-2011, 03:22 PM	#6
Jim K Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 6,408	Re: Simeon North 1822 percussion with Octagon Barrel? To add a bit, FWIW. The lockplate, though converted, is original, as are the trigger guard, trigger, and rear of the stock. The inspector's mark is correct for the original gun; LS was Luther Sage, a Springfield Armory sub-inspector. The rifled barrel and the bolster are not original, nor is the hammer, and the foreend of the stock has been cut down. The conversion was not done by an armory or under military contract; it is a gunsmith job. The slot behind the hammer was for a sliding safety, now gone; the Model 1819 was, AFAIK, the only U.S. flint or percussion military pistol to have a safety. Just another case of someone making an up-to-date gun out of a piece of military surplus junk. Jim

10-12-2011, 03:46 PM	#7
ssmdive Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 3	Re: Simeon North 1822 percussion with Octagon Barrel? Would it be worth getting this into firing condition, or should I just leave it alone? If I am going to get it into firing condition.... Where can I find some guidance? If I should just leave it alone.... What should I do to preserve it?

10-12-2011, 06:36 PM	#8
Jim K Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 6,408	Re: Simeon North 1822 percussion with Octagon Barrel? The problem with a gun like that is that its integrity has already been altered and no one knows how or how well the work was done, so I don't recommend firing it. I would swab out the barrel with a good penetrant, use the same on any active rust, then oil or lightly grease the metal parts, put some furniture polish on the wood, and hang it on the wall. Stories about your five times great grandfather using it to shoot Indians will be up to you. Jim