German Revolver. Help identify? - The Firearms Forum

swampbelly · 10-15-2011, 06:53 AM

This pistol was brought back from WWII Germany. It has fixed cylinder, 6 shot, reduced handle/grips, 2" barrel octagon. Proof marks are double crown over U. Also has a 9 or (6) stamped on the inside of the loading lever and also on the front under the barrel. Could this be chambered for 9mm? It was fired with .32 and it shaved lead. Any help would be appreciated.

hrf · 10-15-2011, 07:35 AM

Welcome to the forum.

If it was able to be fired with .32 cartridges, it's not 9mm caliber, and shaving lead indicates it did not align the cylinder correctly. Probably chambered for the .320 European revolver cartridge, and very similar guns are shown in the 1911 catalog of retailer Adolf Frank, Hamburg. The proof mark is pre-1939, and it's not a military gun.

swampbelly · 10-15-2011, 09:34 AM

Thanks hrf, that's more info that I had. What do you think the "9" stamped in three places means.? If it's a 6, do we need to be told it's a six shot? I know .32s have been fired thru it, but not saying they fired correctly. I have read where some of the rare Nagants for secret service were produced in 9mm, with reduced handle, short barrel, and rounded sight, though I know it's not a Nagant. If it is just shaving lead, can that be fixed?

hrf · 10-15-2011, 11:30 AM

The numbers are usually just assembly numbers, to keep hand fitted parts identified to a particular gun, or to identify a specific workman. Such anonymous guns, with no trademark or other identifying marks, are the products of "cottage industry" craftsmen, and not a formal company or single manufacturer.

The timing problem would not be worth fixing, and why would you want to shoot it? These were not high quality guns, the dependability and cartridge marginal for self defense, and certainly not a target gun.

swampbelly · 10-15-2011, 11:51 AM

All great points, thanks again for your interest. Thought maybe it had some value. I see now why my grandson, the gunsmith, wasn't too interested in it. Although his great-grandfather confiscated the pistol from a German house in 1944. I have an Ortgies, maybe he'd like that better.

BillM · 10-15-2011, 12:02 PM

Could also be 8mm lebel caliber. It has some features of the Nagant.
The lever on the left side could be a safety/decocker lever.

Gabilondo and Urresti (pre Llama) made some nagant pattern (without
the gas seal feature) copies in Eibar Spain, and I have found reference to them using a safety/de-cocker of some sort. The Belgians weren't the only ones making sort-of-but-not-really copies of almost anything that went bang.

Check it over again for proof marks?

hrf · 10-15-2011, 12:35 PM

I see no resemblance to any Nagant except that they are both solid frame revolvers with loading gates. The frame side safety was common on 1890s-early 1900s Belgian and German revolvers of that design. The 8mm Lebel cartridge is almost an inch and half long and would probably exceed length of cylinder on that gun.

Yes, I'm 90% certain your grandson would like the Ortgies better!

swampbelly · 10-15-2011, 01:50 PM

That's right, hrf. It is a little pocket pistol with handle so small it is almost uncomfortable. I can barely get my finger in the trigger guard. Also, my friend fired .32 SCP 80gr. through it. Would that equate to the European .320? Just wanted to make sure the lead shaving wasn't from wrong ammo. However the cylinder does feel kind of loose. Thanks for the input from everyone.

hrf · 10-15-2011, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swampbelly

That's right, hrf. It is a little pocket pistol with handle so small it is almost uncomfortable. I can barely get my finger in the trigger guard. Also, my friend fired .32 SCP 80gr. through it. Would that equate to the European .320? Just wanted to make sure the lead shaving wasn't from wrong ammo. However the cylinder does feel kind of loose. Thanks for the input from everyone.

Yes, the .32 Short Colt cartridge is the American equivalent of the European .320 revolver round.

Jim K · 10-15-2011, 06:16 PM

If that "SCP" is actually "ACP", stop firing .32 ACP in that gun. The .32 ACP cartridge has almost twice the pressure the gun was designed for and could blow the cylinder, both destroying the gun and harming someone.

The revolver was some German civilian's home defense gun, not a military weapon, but U.S. troops seized all guns, regardless of type or value; most were destroyed, but some were brought back. That is one of them. Keep it as a reminder of the sacrifices made in WWII, but don't fire it.

Jim

hrf · 10-15-2011, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim K

If that "SCP" is actually "ACP", stop firing .32 ACP in that gun. The .32 ACP cartridge has almost twice the pressure the gun was designed for and could blow the cylinder, both destroying the gun and harming someone.

Jim

I thought of mentioning that, but he said it shaved lead.

I don't think the "P" belongs but some .32 Short Colt ammo is just marked .32SC

swampbelly · 10-18-2011, 08:03 AM

The ammo box says .32 SCP, Western X brand. Thought P was for pistol. So I'll just put the gun away and maybe use it for a paper weight, and enjoy the personal history of it. Thanks again.

coachwill · 10-18-2011, 08:40 AM

Best advice I have ever heard someone give in matters like this is the following. Clean it up and get a nice shadow box for it to put it over the mantel or in a cabinet and tell stories about how grandpa took it away from some German who tried to resist him and his platoon.

terminator · 10-18-2011, 06:24 PM

Very interesting weapon, thanks for sharing.

hrf · 10-18-2011, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swampbelly

The ammo box says .32 SCP, Western X brand. Thought P was for pistol. So I'll just put the gun away and maybe use it for a paper weight, and enjoy the personal history of it. Thanks again.

Now I'm curious: Can you post a photo of the box and one of the rounds including the headstamp?

swampbelly · 10-19-2011, 10:57 AM

Hrf, don't know how old this ammo is, the lead has a grey patina on them. Here's the photos you requested.

swampbelly · 10-19-2011, 11:04 AM

Ammo photos:

swampbelly · 10-19-2011, 11:05 AM

Sorry, couldn't get pics to load.

hrf · 10-19-2011, 12:07 PM

Well, if they are plain lead bullets with no copper or nickel jackets, they aren't .32ACP (.32 Auto Colt Pistol) as we feared they might be.

swampbelly · 10-19-2011, 03:46 PM

The ammo box reads .32 SCP short colot 80 gr. lead. The cartrige reads W.W. (brand) Short Colt.

10-15-2011, 06:53 AM	#1
swampbelly Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 9	German Revolver. Help identify? This pistol was brought back from WWII Germany. It has fixed cylinder, 6 shot, reduced handle/grips, 2" barrel octagon. Proof marks are double crown over U. Also has a 9 or (6) stamped on the inside of the loading lever and also on the front under the barrel. Could this be chambered for 9mm? It was fired with .32 and it shaved lead. Any help would be appreciated. Attached Images -->

10-15-2011, 07:35 AM	#2
hrf Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 2,283	Re: German Revolver. Help identify? Welcome to the forum. If it was able to be fired with .32 cartridges, it's not 9mm caliber, and shaving lead indicates it did not align the cylinder correctly. Probably chambered for the .320 European revolver cartridge, and very similar guns are shown in the 1911 catalog of retailer Adolf Frank, Hamburg. The proof mark is pre-1939, and it's not a military gun.

10-15-2011, 09:34 AM	#3
swampbelly Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 9	Re: German Revolver. Help identify? Thanks hrf, that's more info that I had. What do you think the "9" stamped in three places means.? If it's a 6, do we need to be told it's a six shot? I know .32s have been fired thru it, but not saying they fired correctly. I have read where some of the rare Nagants for secret service were produced in 9mm, with reduced handle, short barrel, and rounded sight, though I know it's not a Nagant. If it is just shaving lead, can that be fixed?

10-15-2011, 11:30 AM	#4
hrf Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 2,283	Re: German Revolver. Help identify? The numbers are usually just assembly numbers, to keep hand fitted parts identified to a particular gun, or to identify a specific workman. Such anonymous guns, with no trademark or other identifying marks, are the products of "cottage industry" craftsmen, and not a formal company or single manufacturer. The timing problem would not be worth fixing, and why would you want to shoot it? These were not high quality guns, the dependability and cartridge marginal for self defense, and certainly not a target gun.

10-15-2011, 11:51 AM	#5
swampbelly Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 9	Re: German Revolver. Help identify? All great points, thanks again for your interest. Thought maybe it had some value. I see now why my grandson, the gunsmith, wasn't too interested in it. Although his great-grandfather confiscated the pistol from a German house in 1944. I have an Ortgies, maybe he'd like that better.

10-15-2011, 12:02 PM	#6
BillM V.I.P. Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Amity Orygun Posts: 380	Re: German Revolver. Help identify? Could also be 8mm lebel caliber. It has some features of the Nagant. The lever on the left side could be a safety/decocker lever. Gabilondo and Urresti (pre Llama) made some nagant pattern (without the gas seal feature) copies in Eibar Spain, and I have found reference to them using a safety/de-cocker of some sort. The Belgians weren't the only ones making sort-of-but-not-really copies of almost anything that went bang. Check it over again for proof marks?

10-15-2011, 12:35 PM	#7
hrf Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 2,283	Re: German Revolver. Help identify? I see no resemblance to any Nagant except that they are both solid frame revolvers with loading gates. The frame side safety was common on 1890s-early 1900s Belgian and German revolvers of that design. The 8mm Lebel cartridge is almost an inch and half long and would probably exceed length of cylinder on that gun. Yes, I'm 90% certain your grandson would like the Ortgies better!

10-15-2011, 01:50 PM	#8
swampbelly Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 9	Re: German Revolver. Help identify? That's right, hrf. It is a little pocket pistol with handle so small it is almost uncomfortable. I can barely get my finger in the trigger guard. Also, my friend fired .32 SCP 80gr. through it. Would that equate to the European .320? Just wanted to make sure the lead shaving wasn't from wrong ammo. However the cylinder does feel kind of loose. Thanks for the input from everyone.

10-15-2011, 06:16 PM	#10
Jim K Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 6,408	Re: German Revolver. Help identify? If that "SCP" is actually "ACP", stop firing .32 ACP in that gun. The .32 ACP cartridge has almost twice the pressure the gun was designed for and could blow the cylinder, both destroying the gun and harming someone. The revolver was some German civilian's home defense gun, not a military weapon, but U.S. troops seized all guns, regardless of type or value; most were destroyed, but some were brought back. That is one of them. Keep it as a reminder of the sacrifices made in WWII, but don't fire it. Jim

10-18-2011, 08:03 AM	#12
swampbelly Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 9	Re: German Revolver. Help identify? The ammo box says .32 SCP, Western X brand. Thought P was for pistol. So I'll just put the gun away and maybe use it for a paper weight, and enjoy the personal history of it. Thanks again.

10-18-2011, 08:40 AM	#13
coachwill Forum Sponsor Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Vestavia, AL Posts: 122	Re: German Revolver. Help identify? Best advice I have ever heard someone give in matters like this is the following. Clean it up and get a nice shadow box for it to put it over the mantel or in a cabinet and tell stories about how grandpa took it away from some German who tried to resist him and his platoon.

10-18-2011, 06:24 PM	#14
terminator V.I.P. Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 130	Re: German Revolver. Help identify? Very interesting weapon, thanks for sharing.

10-19-2011, 10:57 AM	#16
swampbelly Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 9	Re: German Revolver. Help identify? Hrf, don't know how old this ammo is, the lead has a grey patina on them. Here's the photos you requested.

10-19-2011, 11:04 AM	#17
swampbelly Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 9	Re: German Revolver. Help identify? Ammo photos:

10-19-2011, 11:05 AM	#18
swampbelly Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 9	Re: German Revolver. Help identify? Sorry, couldn't get pics to load.

10-19-2011, 12:07 PM	#19
hrf Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 2,283	Re: German Revolver. Help identify? Well, if they are plain lead bullets with no copper or nickel jackets, they aren't .32ACP (.32 Auto Colt Pistol) as we feared they might be.

10-19-2011, 03:46 PM	#20
swampbelly Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 9	Re: German Revolver. Help identify? The ammo box reads .32 SCP short colot 80 gr. lead. The cartrige reads W.W. (brand) Short Colt.