.45-70 - The Firearms Forum

twopass · 01-15-2013, 02:25 PM

Can modern reproductions of the 1886 made by Miroku in Japan for Winchester/Browning safely handle cartridges re-loaded to higher pressures than factory ammo?

Rule of thumb guidelines as to how much?

I'm not reloading anything here, just curious.....

Oldeyes · 01-15-2013, 03:07 PM

The Miroku Winchester/Browning highwall .45-70 is ranked right up there with the Ruger No. 1 in terms of its ability to handle high pressure loads. According to the information at http://www.chuckhawks.com/45-70Govt.htm: "The owners of modern single shot rifles, such as the Ruger No. 1 and Browning 1885 High Wall, can safely take the pressure limit even higher, and can use 500 grain bullets. The result is loads that tread on the heels of some African safari cartridges." and "The final selection of .45-70 reloads are for strong bolt action or single shot rifles that can take pressures running up to 50,000 cup. In such rifles 55.4 grains of IMR 3031 can give the Hornady 350 grain bullets a MV of 2000 fps, and 59.6 grains a MV of 2200 fps. These loads were chronographed in the 22" barrel of a Ruger No.1 rifle." From a practical standpoint the Winchester/Browning highwall design .45-70 rifle is capable of safely handling loads that can hurt the shooter almost as much as the intended target.

I would seriously suggest starting out with mid pressure/velocity loads and work up to your recoil tolerance level.

Alpo · 01-15-2013, 03:15 PM

He didn't ask about the 1885 High Wall. He said the 1886. That's the Winchester lever action repeater.

One of my books (and I don't recall which it is, right at the moment) had three sections for 45/70. Trapdoor loads. Lever action loads (that would be the Marlin 95 and the Browning 86) and Ruger/Mauser loads.

I must agree with the "work up to your tolerance level". I made some loads, using 300 JHP and 2400, in the Marlin 95, that were perfectly safe to shoot, and hurt like a mother.

Bindernut · 01-15-2013, 03:40 PM

If reloading for the 1886, stick with the lever action (level 2) loads in the manuals. As Alpo posted, most manuals have three sections of load data for 45-70.

I'm not sure what pressure levels all of the different the 45-70 factory loads are loaded to. You'll have to check the ammo sites for specs on the loads you're wondering about.
The Winchester 300gr JHP load is loaded to trapdoor levels (level 1) for only 1800fps. That's the only one that I know right off the top of my head.

I agree with the suggestion to work up to your tolerance level too.

I have a heckuva time handling level 1 loads with 400/405gr cast lead out of the Marlin 95

Oldeyes · 01-15-2013, 03:52 PM

Alpo,

Thanks for catching my error. My bad. At this point you perhaps may be given pause to wonder exactly where I came up with my screen name.

I have only fired the 1886 model once in .45-70 with the factory Remington 300 grain JHP's and my take was that the beautiful curved steel butt plate can be brutally painful with heavy loads on a naked shoulder. The Past Magnum Recoil Pad is highly recommended.

AR guy · 01-15-2013, 06:53 PM

The people you want to get a hold of on this question are JLA or LD Bennett.

myfriendis410 · 01-15-2013, 08:38 PM

As far as I'm aware; all factory loadings of the 45/70 are loaded below 29,200 cup. This is at the top end of 1874 Sharps levels. The handloader can greatly exceed these pressures in rifles stout enough to handle the pressure. I have loaded 500 gr. cast bullets up to just below this pressure level in my 13 lb. rifle and I can attest to the fact that it's all you ever want to shoot. Ten rounds is a range session.

LDBennett · 01-16-2013, 07:54 AM

The big ammo factories (Remington, Winchester, Federal) load the 45-70 to be safe in any gun including the trap door which is a level 1 gun. The only way to get to level 2 or 3 that I know of is to hand load or get custom ammo made.

But I will tell you that a 300 gr bullet at 1800 FPS with a steel butt plate, as on my Browning 1886, HURTS. That is close to level 2. I also use a PAST recoil pad (on me not the gun) that makes the recoil acceptable. More than one friend has wimped out after shooting my gun without the pad. It is not the recoil but the sharp edge of steel butt plate that just digs into the shoulder. I've not shot any factory ammo in the gun so I don't know how bad the recoil would be at level 1. Nor have I shot any bullets heavier than 300 grains.

LDBennett

01-15-2013, 02:25 PM	#1
twopass Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 9	.45-70 Can modern reproductions of the 1886 made by Miroku in Japan for Winchester/Browning safely handle cartridges re-loaded to higher pressures than factory ammo? Rule of thumb guidelines as to how much? I'm not reloading anything here, just curious..... --> Last edited by twopass; 01-15-2013 at 02:32 PM..

01-15-2013, 03:07 PM	#2
Oldeyes V.I.P. Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Ohio Posts: 218	Re: .45-70 The Miroku Winchester/Browning highwall .45-70 is ranked right up there with the Ruger No. 1 in terms of its ability to handle high pressure loads. According to the information at http://www.chuckhawks.com/45-70Govt.htm: "The owners of modern single shot rifles, such as the Ruger No. 1 and Browning 1885 High Wall, can safely take the pressure limit even higher, and can use 500 grain bullets. The result is loads that tread on the heels of some African safari cartridges." and "The final selection of .45-70 reloads are for strong bolt action or single shot rifles that can take pressures running up to 50,000 cup. In such rifles 55.4 grains of IMR 3031 can give the Hornady 350 grain bullets a MV of 2000 fps, and 59.6 grains a MV of 2200 fps. These loads were chronographed in the 22" barrel of a Ruger No.1 rifle." From a practical standpoint the Winchester/Browning highwall design .45-70 rifle is capable of safely handling loads that can hurt the shooter almost as much as the intended target. I would seriously suggest starting out with mid pressure/velocity loads and work up to your recoil tolerance level.

01-15-2013, 03:15 PM	#3
Alpo Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: NW Florida Posts: 8,664	Re: .45-70 He didn't ask about the 1885 High Wall. He said the 1886. That's the Winchester lever action repeater. One of my books (and I don't recall which it is, right at the moment) had three sections for 45/70. Trapdoor loads. Lever action loads (that would be the Marlin 95 and the Browning 86) and Ruger/Mauser loads. I must agree with the "work up to your tolerance level". I made some loads, using 300 JHP and 2400, in the Marlin 95, that were perfectly safe to shoot, and hurt like a mother. __________________ Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy, and taste good with catsup - George of Lod, Year of Our Lord 297 I always take precautions. Beware the Evil Bullet Fairies.

01-15-2013, 03:40 PM	#4
Bindernut Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: ND, USA Posts: 2,453	Re: .45-70 If reloading for the 1886, stick with the lever action (level 2) loads in the manuals. As Alpo posted, most manuals have three sections of load data for 45-70. I'm not sure what pressure levels all of the different the 45-70 factory loads are loaded to. You'll have to check the ammo sites for specs on the loads you're wondering about. The Winchester 300gr JHP load is loaded to trapdoor levels (level 1) for only 1800fps. That's the only one that I know right off the top of my head. I agree with the suggestion to work up to your tolerance level too. I have a heckuva time handling level 1 loads with 400/405gr cast lead out of the Marlin 95 Last edited by Bindernut; 01-15-2013 at 03:43 PM..

01-15-2013, 03:52 PM	#5
Oldeyes V.I.P. Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Ohio Posts: 218	Re: .45-70 Alpo, Thanks for catching my error. My bad. At this point you perhaps may be given pause to wonder exactly where I came up with my screen name. I have only fired the 1886 model once in .45-70 with the factory Remington 300 grain JHP's and my take was that the beautiful curved steel butt plate can be brutally painful with heavy loads on a naked shoulder. The Past Magnum Recoil Pad is highly recommended. Last edited by Oldeyes; 01-15-2013 at 03:56 PM..

01-15-2013, 06:53 PM	#6
AR guy Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Joliet, Illinois Posts: 558	Re: .45-70 The people you want to get a hold of on this question are JLA or LD Bennett. __________________ * Don't be a fool and die for your country. Let the other sonofabitch die for his. * * Courage is fear holding on a minute longer. * * Americans play to win at all times. I wouldn't give a hoot and hell for a man who lost and laughed. That's why Americans have never lost nor ever lose a war.* George S. Patton (1885-1945) *The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing * Edmond Burke

01-15-2013, 08:38 PM	#7
myfriendis410 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Lompoc California Posts: 543	Re: .45-70 As far as I'm aware; all factory loadings of the 45/70 are loaded below 29,200 cup. This is at the top end of 1874 Sharps levels. The handloader can greatly exceed these pressures in rifles stout enough to handle the pressure. I have loaded 500 gr. cast bullets up to just below this pressure level in my 13 lb. rifle and I can attest to the fact that it's all you ever want to shoot. Ten rounds is a range session. __________________ Life's too short to shoot an ugly gun.....

01-16-2013, 07:54 AM	#8
LDBennett Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Hesperia, CA Posts: 5,719	Re: .45-70 The big ammo factories (Remington, Winchester, Federal) load the 45-70 to be safe in any gun including the trap door which is a level 1 gun. The only way to get to level 2 or 3 that I know of is to hand load or get custom ammo made. But I will tell you that a 300 gr bullet at 1800 FPS with a steel butt plate, as on my Browning 1886, HURTS. That is close to level 2. I also use a PAST recoil pad (on me not the gun) that makes the recoil acceptable. More than one friend has wimped out after shooting my gun without the pad. It is not the recoil but the sharp edge of steel butt plate that just digs into the shoulder. I've not shot any factory ammo in the gun so I don't know how bad the recoil would be at level 1. Nor have I shot any bullets heavier than 300 grains. LDBennett