Something bothering me

[RunningOnMT]

I've been troubled lately by several sermons I listened to regarding obedience to authority. These sermons were given by someone for whom I have always had a great deal of respect. I have never found anything this pastor teaches to be in conflict with scripture.

Basically he says that all authority on earth, be it good or evil, is ordained by God. That as Christians we are to render strict obedience except where obedience would require you to violate the law of God. He uses a number of examples from both the old and new testement, of how God's people always obeyed even evil and unjust rulers, except when they were commanded to violate God's law, say for example by bowing down and worshipping idols.

This is a problem for me as I've always been a bit of a rebel against authority I've thought was wrong; not just in a Biblical sense, but as a matter of civil justice. In these times, considering those presently in power, the need to participate in some form of civil disobedience at some point seems quite possible.

Secondly, if obedience to God means obedience to civil authority, where would we be today had the founders followed this precept? We never would have had an American revolution. Therefore two things must be true; the American revolution was wrong and disobedient to God but yet was ordained by Him. If this is true would not a second revolution also be ordained by God? As another example; if I understand this correctly, it would have been wrong for German citizens to try to kill Hitler. That is hard for me to swallow.

Have any of the rest of you struggled with the dilemma of wanting to be obedient to God but at times feeling the need to act in disobedience to the government? How do you resolve this conflict?

I can post links to a few of these sermons if anyone would careto hear them but for now I just want to see how you all feel about this.

[lawdawg]

Romans 13 (NIV)

Submission to Governing Authorities

1 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.
6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.


I have always understood that we are supposed to live in the world as pilgrims passing through a strange land; we adhere to its laws and authority, and try to make it a better place while here, but realize it is not our actual Home and our stay is only temporary. I think we all are guilty sometimes of getting too caught up in politics and forgetting that we are citizens of another Kingdom, one "not of this world". I believe it is OK to try and make ourselves a little more comfortable while here, but not so comfortable that we start to think we belong here. In the meantime, God is still on the Throne and everything, even world government, is subject to Him.

[American Leader]

Very interesting and somewhat deep if you give it thought. Thanks guys!

[Bobitis]

This is gonna be interesting. Very good question my friend.

The Bible says 'render unto Ceasar what is Ceasars'.

How is that defined and by whom? What are the rules? When is it our duty to ignore them?

In my mind, the defining arguement is do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

Does that imply that I should be a slave to the government? I should give so that I can get it back? Makes no sense.

I donate when and where I can (and choose). I'm all for helping those that are truly in need. It's not the governments role to tell me who is worthy.

Give a man a fish, and feed him for a day. Teach him to fish, and feed him for a lifetime.

Too many societies today keep tossing the man a fish every day. It doesn't work.
Our obligation is to help the man become self sufficient. Help him to teach others how to fish. How to Contribute.

I'd be interested in the links.

Givernment (sp) should be strictly limited in its powers. When they are usurped, it's the peoples right to protest.

Jesus died on the cross that man would have the right to choose. I for one don't believe that act was limited to going to heaven or hell. It has far reaching consequences other than that.

That's it for now. Carry on.

[Double D]

This is my stumbling block. I find it almost impossible to believe god had anyting to do with the current clownship and I guess I will have to sort it out with him later. I have hit a wall. I cannot and will not ever be subject to this guys so called leadership. Not now, not ever. I guess I am outright going against what is written. Call it what you may. I am out of step and cant see it any other way.

[CampingJosh]

Originally Posted by Bobitis

The Bible says 'render unto Ceasar what is Ceasars'.

This quote from Jesus comes immediately after asking whose image is on the Roman coin. Caesar's image is on the coin, so we render that under his control.

Where is God's image? We're told in Genesis 1.27 that we--man and woman--were created in God's image. It's on us, not the coins. We are to render ourselves to God's control.


The only way I can answer a Christian's internal struggle in this area--and I think that every thinking Christian has this struggle at least occasionally--is by questioning our focus. Throughout the New Testament, we don't see any of Jesus followers attempting to change earthly government. Even when the governments violently persecuted and executed these people, the focus of the biblical Christians was never on this world.
When Peter and John were unjustly locked in prison, the believers weren't planning a jail break. They were praying. When Paul was arrested and transported to Rome, he didn't attempt to escape; he instead preached the Word wherever the soldiers took him.

Personally, I am very dissatisfied with our government. I'm basically a libertarian. But every time I start to get focused on making changes to the way this life operates, I find that I'm losing focus on leading others into the next, far more important life.

[cycloneman]

The fact that your thinking about it tells me your trying to do the right thing.

I dont care what anybody says or what someones interpretation of scripture is. It is my interpretation that is important and what I will be judged on.

1. Is it right for the govt to confiscate your money and redistribute it to others? You have to answer this for yourself.

2. Do you think it's right for govt to send you to war to fight a cause you dont believe in?

3. Do you think it's right for the govt to kill certain people?

Personally i dont believe there is a govt that is right and just anymore.

Look around.

Ok when Jesus asked if anyone is free of sin cast the first stone. This was ment to make you think instead of following the norm.

Ask God what he wants you to do, listen to him when he speakes to you.
Listen to man and you will certainly screw up. I am not telling you who is right. It is up to you and God.

Would I have taken out hilter? Dam straight, would not loose any sleep over it.

Good question and many will have to search their souls in the future I fear. It is better to have these questions resolved before God presses the reset button.

You know what is right and wrong. GOd made you that way. Your choice. I think things are gona get tuff for some people, real tuff.

Our founding fathers gave us freedom. Freedom is required for salvation. What Jesus did on that day was his free will. He walked up to Calvery and freely choose to let his supernatural power go. He could have stopped what was to happen but if he did then people would have followed him out of fear. God doesn't want stupid people. He wants your heart and soul from your free will. He endoured whipping, a crown of thorns, carried that heavy cross up the mountain, got nailed to it and suffered a stabb in the side and died a horrable death in the sun. He could have stopped it but he didn't. For one brief moment he cried out to God "why have you forsaken me". At that moment God had to turn his back on Jesus and let him go. Can you imagine the hurt God must have felt? Jesus said forgive them Father for they know not what they do. None of this could happen without free will.

That is why it is so important that we fight for freedom. Freedom is the foundation by which God will build his kingdom. Those people in the middle east dont have this. Many people in the world dont have this.

I want to take this time to thank you God for your grace. In return I will uphold God's will, whatever is required.

Peace to all.

[JohnHenry]

..... and, this thread is why I'm refered to as a "agnostist or deist" . My belief in God is absolute, my belief in organized religion is non-existent . Organized religion "requires" that I believe in things and/or engage in activities as "acts of faith" that are completely un-justifible according to what I have observed of human life .

When the "preacher" sez' "Do you believe ?" I answer "In the Creator, yes .... in your
version of reacting to Him, no" .

[cycloneman]

Originally Posted by JohnHenry

..... and, this thread is why I'm refered to as a "agnostist or deist" . My belief in God is absolute, my belief in organized religion is non-existent . Organized religion "requires" that I believe in things and/or engage in activities as "acts of faith" that are completely un-justifible according to what I have observed of human life .

When the "preacher" sez' "Do you believe ?" I answer "In the Creator, yes .... in your
version of reacting to Him, no" .

Not picking on you JH. You bring up good points.

Faith is something you have or you dont. You must have the option to freely choose it.

Do you believe Jesus rose Lazarist from the dead?

Do you believe Jesus healed the sick, healed the lepper?

Do you belive he rose from the dead?

Do you believe the apostiles?

Do you believe in every day miricles? Read the thread 254 in this forum. They happen every day.

Man can certainly muff things up when it comes to religion. But dont let that deny your faith or salvation.

[cycloneman]

WHAT PILOTS SEE
WHEN LANDING AT OFFUTT AIR FORCE BASE.

A farmer does this with his tractor. He uses GPS to get the letters readable.
He has done this every fall for several years now.

Here's the view from the flight pattern into OFFUTT AIR FORCE BASE
Bellevue , NE., just south of Omaha .
This is what our servicemen see when landing at Offutt AFB.
Hat tip to the Bellevue farmer who made it happen!

[JohnHenry]

You answered your own question .... "Do I believe that Jesus did various things ?"
I believe in God, the Creator .... I have no thoughts on Jesus, one way or another. So, it follows that I do not react to the dictates of ANY organized religion. I'm not just referring to various Christian versions of religion .... I mean all organized religions .

[ampaterry]

I don't think it is difficult to follow Bible teaching here.
Render unto Caesar that which is Caesars, and to God that which is Gods.

If you have a leader spending your tax money in a way you do not agree with, you work within the system to change that tax law or replace that leader.

If you have a leader that is killing people, he has earned the biblical punishment of death.
ergo, Hitler could be assasinated without breaking God's law.

We cannot have an effective armed forces if each individual soldier decides when and where he wishes to fight. When you enlist, you take an oath to obey all lawful orders, and that is exactly what a Christian should do.

[ampaterry]

John, if your belief in God is absolute, you are NOT an agnostic.

In fact, if you simply do not KNOW if God exists or not, you are STILL not an agnostic.

An agnostic has a very specific belief:
God is beyond knowing. I don't know if He exists, YOU don't know if He exists, and no one knows if He exists; such positive knowledge is impossible.

I know many people that simply don't know if God exists; they are merely undecided, not agnostic.

From your statements, you are a Deist.

I would pose this question to you, though.

IF God exists, AND he is all powergful, why would he not find a way to tell us what he expects from us?

I was EXACTLY where you are, and through study and investigation I came to the conclusion that He DID tell us, in the collected books in the Bible.

[JohnHenry]

"IF God exists, AND he is all powergful, why would he not find a way to tell us what he expects from us?"

Since He is all powerful why would He expect anything from such comparatively insignificant creatures as we are ? Aren't we just a parasitic life form on a minor fringe near the edge of His creation .... why / what could he expect from us ?

[cycloneman]

Originally Posted by JohnHenry

"IF God exists, AND he is all powergful, why would he not find a way to tell us what he expects from us?"

Since He is all powerful why would He expect anything from such comparatively insignificant creatures as we are ? Aren't we just a parasitic life form on a minor fringe near the edge of His creation .... why / what could he expect from us ?

Good question.

I believe he expects a kingdom where satan types are not around.

You see if he comes out of the sky and preforms supernatural things you would follow him out of fear. Then someday a smart butt like satan will challange him. Which is what is happening. So he has to give you the free will to choose right from wrong. He can not interfear in your choice. You must come to him free of fear.

What could he expect from us? Companionship, a kingdom, beyond that the sky is the limit. Who know what we are ment to do in the future.


Parasitic life form? Come on. He gave us the breath of life.

Ok. Everything around you is dirt. YOu car, your computer, your kitchen table and so on. Next time you sit in your car remember its dirt. Everthing that made that car came from under your feet. Man can make these things but only God can breath life into a creation like our bodies.

The fact that we are given free will to choose means we are not insignificant, he has alot to loose and he will loose many of us. Those that follow him are really gona make his day.

[hunter29180]

Originally Posted by RunningOnMT

I've been troubled lately by several sermons I listened to regarding obedience to authority. Basically he says that all authority on earth, be it good or evil, is ordained by God. That as Christians we are to render strict obedience except where obedience would require you to violate the law of God.

My understanding is that God vested unto (us) man the authority to govern ourselves..as such if that authority is or becomes evil it was our (mans) own choice that allowed this to happen. BUT the original authority did in fact come from GOD. It was our free choice, coupled with the authorty to govern ourselves that caused this!

Secondly, if obedience to God means obedience to civil authority, where would we be today had the founders followed this precept? We never would have had an American revolution. Therefore two things must be true; the American revolution was wrong and disobedient to God but yet was ordained by Him. If this is true would not a second revolution also be ordained by God? As another example; if I understand this correctly, it would have been wrong for German citizens to try to kill Hitler. That is hard for me to swallow.

only GOD can answer those questions. for me I believe the American revolution was our choice. (be it good or evil) IT was our (MANS) choice. as for Hitler?? well he committed crimes that clearly placed him in contest to GODS will and rule.

Have any of the rest of you struggled with the dilemma of wanting to be obedient to God but at times feeling the need to act in disobedience to the government? How do you resolve this conflict?

In this all I can answer is "PRAYER" and intense listening to GOD.

Originally Posted by Double D

This is my stumbling block. I find it almost impossible to believe god had anyting to do with the current clownship and I guess I will have to sort it out with him later. I have hit a wall. I cannot and will not ever be subject to this guys so called leadership. Not now, not ever. I guess I am outright going against what is written. Call it what you may. I am out of step and cant see it any other way.

Actuall the only thing GOD had to do with this, is ALLOWING us FREE CHOICE...we allowed this choice not GOD. as to the rest..as long as he issues lawful orders I have to obey. I took a Oath to that. Even if I disagree with him and his choices. The Key is "LAWFUL" other than that I agree with you.

Originally Posted by cycloneman

The fact that your thinking about it tells me your trying to do the right thing.

I dont care what anybody says or what someones interpretation of scripture is. It is my interpretation that is important and what I will be judged on.

Agreeded! each of us will have to excercise our "Free Choice" and be "judged" by God for it.

1. Is it right for the govt to confiscate your money and redistribute it to others? You have to answer this for yourself.

For ME, no its not

2. Do you think it's right for govt to send you to war to fight a cause you dont believe in?

What war? so far while I believe the ones we have fought and are currently in are Mishandled. I would rather Us fight over there than here on our own ground. and if I am against the cause so much I can serve in a support role for those on the front line. I can cook or dig latines for them.


3. Do you think it's right for the govt to kill certain people?

in certian circumstances..yes. again choice.

Personally i dont believe there is a govt that is right and just anymore.

I feel ours is as close as us poor misguided humans have come!


Ask God what he wants you to do, listen to him when he speakes to you.
Listen to man and you will certainly screw up. I am not telling you who is right. It is up to you and God.
God doesn't want stupid people. He wants your heart and soul from your free will. He endoured whipping, a crown of thorns, carried that heavy cross up the mountain, got nailed to it and suffered a stabb in the side and died a horrable death in the sun. He could have stopped it but he didn't. For one brief moment he cried out to God "why have you forsaken me". At that moment God had to turn his back on Jesus and let him go. Can you imagine the hurt God must have felt? Jesus said forgive them Father for they know not what they do. None of this could happen without free will.

That is why it is so important that we fight for freedom. Freedom is the foundation by which God will build his kingdom. Those people in the middle east dont have this. Many people in the world dont have this.

I want to take this time to thank you God for your grace. In return I will uphold God's will, whatever is required.

Peace to all.

AMEN!

Originally Posted by ampaterry

I don't think it is difficult to follow Bible teaching here.
Render unto Caesar that which is Caesars, and to God that which is Gods.

If you have a leader spending your tax money in a way you do not agree with, you work within the system to change that tax law or replace that leader.

If you have a leader that is killing people, he has earned the biblical punishment of death.
ergo, Hitler could be assasinated without breaking God's law.

We cannot have an effective armed forces if each individual soldier decides when and where he wishes to fight. When you enlist, you take an oath to obey all lawful orders, and that is exactly what a Christian should do.

100% agreement here!!

[RunningOnMT]

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believes in him shall not parish, but have everlasting life."

The truth is available to whoever will seek it. Our heavenly Father has done his part and revealed the truth through His Son and His gospel. When you want to know the truth JohnHenry, you know where to find it.

I will pray that you will sense the call of the Holy Spirit drawing you to Him and His Word.

[hunter29180]

Originally Posted by JohnHenry

..... and, this thread is why I'm refered to as a "agnostist or deist" . My belief in God is absolute, my belief in organized religion is non-existent . Organized religion "requires" that I believe in things and/or engage in activities as "acts of faith" that are completely un-justifible according to what I have observed of human life .

When the "preacher" sez' "Do you believe ?" I answer "In the Creator, yes .... in your
version of reacting to Him, no" .

I would never try to "classify you JohnHenry. you Believe in GOD, not sure about JESUS and question Acts of Faith. thats actuall a pretty good starting point! I too have "Problems" with "ORGANISED" reglions. and like you find most Preachers either too self centered or so hard line they have lost focus on what Gods words are.

in Jesus if you believe in the New Testament then you believe in Jesus, if not them you only adhere to the old testement. Faith and acts of Faith? you show Faith in your belief of GOD, in that statement you also believe in acts of Faith, God tells you they exist and has told you of several. the question would be, have you witnessed any..only you can answer that one.

Originally Posted by JohnHenry

You answered your own question .... "Do I believe that Jesus did various things ?"
I believe in God, the Creator .... I have no thoughts on Jesus, one way or another. So, it follows that I do not react to the dictates of ANY organized religion. I'm not just referring to various Christian versions of religion .... I mean all organized religions .

question here..When God states.."I have sent MY ONLY BEGOTTON SON"...who do you think he was referring to?

as to the rest of your statement. I support your choice.

Originally Posted by JohnHenry

"IF God exists, AND he is all powergful, why would he not find a way to tell us what he expects from us?"

I and MANY other believe he has. again with the free choice granted to us by GOD. you may choose to believe he has not. and again i will choose to support you.

Since He is all powerful why would He expect anything from such comparatively insignificant creatures as we are ? Aren't we just a parasitic life form on a minor fringe near the edge of His creation .... why / what could he expect from us ?

The answer to your question is within your own mindset. What would you EXPECT from your children? We are all GODS children!
Please remember GOD CHOSE to create us..he also decided in his all encompassing LOVE decided to allow us to make our mistakes, so we could learn from them. much as we as parents allow our children to make many of their own mistakes...so they can learn from them.....sounds to me like GOD has a handle on the parenting thing.......

and as far as Parasitic lifeforms...well maybe..but only because we have chose to be so..I find it hard to believe GOD had that in mind when he CHOSE to create us!

[RunningOnMT]

Originally Posted by ampaterry

I don't think it is difficult to follow Bible teaching here.
Render unto Caesar that which is Caesars, and to God that which is Gods.

If you have a leader spending your tax money in a way you do not agree with, you work within the system to change that tax law or replace that leader.

If you have a leader that is killing people, he has earned the biblical punishment of death.
ergo, Hitler could be assasinated without breaking God's law.

We cannot have an effective armed forces if each individual soldier decides when and where he wishes to fight. When you enlist, you take an oath to obey all lawful orders, and that is exactly what a Christian should do.

Forgive me Terry but you have oversimplified my question. I was speaking of more than taxation and rendering unto Caesar etc.

Let me put it this way. We have a constitution that contains certain principles. Among these are what the founders felt were God given rights. Now what if those in power are usurping those rights. Yes we work within the system, but as Christians are we required to accept these abuses if we can not rectify them politically?

As this is a firearms forum, let's use an example that's near and dear to us all; the second amendment. Now suppose Obama and the many assorted liberals and socialists in the congress were able to pass a law declaring that the second amendment refers to the militia which is now the national guard (many gun grabbers use that argument), and therefore orders the confiscation of all privately owned firearms. Let's also suppose that the supreme court upholds that law by a narrow margin. Would we as Christians be obliged to obey that law and turn over our guns?

Of course that is an extreme example not likely to happen in the near future, but we are headed in that direction, and I see the distinct possibility of something like this in the future. Look only to Australia and the UK.

There are other abuses taking place, and we all want to see Obama out of office but there is no guarantee we can vote him out. So if we are in fact unable to, are we then required to accept his abuses and usurpations? If so that makes the constitution unenforceable since it was the founders position that the government answers to the people, and the people have the right to demand, by force of arms if necessary, that the constitution be adhered to. But if we are to obey government authority how is that possible?

See my dilemma?

[rosierita]

i would like to hear the sermons, if you don't mind posting them.

i believe that if you are seeking God first, He's going to guide you & your every decision, moment by moment.

there is a lot about government that i do not like & will not support, but i haven't broken any laws... like abortion... i am absolutely against murdering innocent people & there are none more innocent than a defenseless baby... yet, the government supports it & pays for murder of innocents through abortion.

i guess, if we're changing 1 life at a time, like josh suggested, that's the truest form of change i can think of. we're so busy thinking about the BIG picture & wringing our hands about how to change it, when we could effectively be changing it 1 life at a time by caring more about the individuals in our every day path.

God brings people to us, so that they can be ministered to & how many of us even realize that or even notice?

[rosierita]

Originally Posted by RunningOnMT

Forgive me Terry but you have oversimplified my question. I was speaking of more than taxation and rendering unto Caesar etc.

Let me put it this way. We have a constitution that contains certain principles. Among these are what the founders felt were God given rights. Now what if those in power are usurping those rights. Yes we work within the system, but as Christians are we required to accept these abuses if we can not rectify them politically?

As this is a firearms forum, let's use an example that's near and dear to us all; the second amendment. Now suppose Obama and the many assorted liberals and socialists in the congress were able to pass a law declaring that the second amendment refers to the militia which is now the national guard (many gun grabbers use that argument), and therefore orders the confiscation of all privately owned firearms. Let's also suppose that the supreme court upholds that law by a narrow margin. Would we as Christians be obliged to obey that law and turn over our guns?

Of course that is an extreme example not likely to happen in the near future, but we are headed in that direction, and I see the distinct possibility of something like this in the future. Look only to Australia and the UK.

There are other abuses taking place, and we all want to see Obama out of office but there is no guarantee we can vote him out. So if we are in fact unable to, are we then required to accept his abuses and usurpations? If so that makes the constitution unenforceable since it was the founders position that the government answers to the people, and the people have the right to demand, by force of arms if necessary, that the constitution be adhered to. But if we are to obey government authority how is that possible?

See my dilemma?

i understand what you are saying... but...

Philippians 4:5-7

New International Version (NIV)

5 Let your gentleness be evident to all. The Lord is near. 6 Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. 7 And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

at the moment you are worried about a "what if". we absolutely should be actively trying to preserve what the founders intended, i'm not saying sit by & allow our country to be destroyed. it is up to each of us to make wise choices, good choices, Godly choices.

i don't think its wrong to plan ahead, but don't linger in the future. it causes anxiety & stress. pray about it, trust God for it, but remain in the present so that your present tasks can be accomplished. i do not believe that God wants you so worried about the future that you ignore the present.

today, right now, God has plans & tasks for you to do. if you're so focused on the "what ifs" will you be fully effective today?

today God is going to give you opportunities & that is going to affect the future. do keep the future in mind, but work towards that TODAY. don't let today escape you. be effective TODAY.

[RunningOnMT]

Thoughtful Biblical answer Rosierita and I am working toward that approach, but it's hard at times. I lose my focus and forget to let God control things.

But in that one example I gave, would you turn in your guns if authorities demanded it? That would be excruciatingly painful for me, but if I was convinced that was God's will, I would do it.

[RunningOnMT]

Here you go.

http://www.gty.org/resources/sermons...thority-Part-1

http://www.gty.org/resources/sermons/60-25

[Double D]

ROMT, my answer is NO. I would rebel. I would not lay down my guns and submit. As I said before, I have a very hard time believing god had anything to do with obama being elected. Maybe someone can jog my memory back in the old testement when the people insisted on a king and god had other plans but they insisted and he let them have their way and it turned out to be a disaster. I wont submit to this guy ever. Not ever.

[ampaterry]

ROMT, I believe your example is absolutely the perfect one, because Christ was very clear in telling us that it is more important to be armed than to be clothed. If such a law were passed, I would not submit to it.
Does that mean I would shoot the deputy that comes to my door to pick them up?
No, I would not. He is probably as opposed to such a stupid law as I am, and simply does not know how to get around it and still support his family.
I would use subterfuge, hide them, whatever necessary. I would even turn in one or two old worn out pieces just to take the heat off of me. I have heard it proposed that everyone should hang on to a few old junker guns just for that specific purpose.