creation - The Firearms Forum

jack404 · 11-04-2011, 12:49 AM

big topic and i know Terry has a lot of interest in this area

i'm a creationist evolutionist

i believe God made the heaven and the earth and everything in the universe

but not in a day but in His "Day"

i believe He got the Big bang going and things rolled on from their ...

to the point that we developed to the point where we stopped being just a evolutionary critter , to one that could hold a soul

and with that soul came knowledge of God

a short Video for you all http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCsA2sFdjv8

see what you think , i know some folks will be upset by this , i aint saying i'm right , i am saying this is what i have come to believe from study and observation and prayer ..

some folks have big objections to say we came from monkeys but thats not correct in my belief .. the ape path was a tool God used to create us from star dust to all the way to life via cellular growth and all the things in nature as they are all from God

again what i personally think , just me , no hassling folks what they think

PS ever notice a common theme throughout the galaxy ?

the stars to our DNA all have something in common

Fractal maths

HunterAlpha1 · 11-04-2011, 01:18 AM

you might want to check out what Ken Ham has to say on this subject:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/

ampaterry · 11-04-2011, 05:59 AM

I am indeed a firm creationist.

I KNOW that God created all that is, including us.

I BELIEVE he did this through special, fiat creation; ex nihilo, if you will.

And of course, I could be wrong - He is, after all, God, and could have created us through whatever means he chose to use.

I have a friend, John Davison, who is prof. emeritus of zoology from the University of Vermont. He has written extensively on origins, and has come up with the Proscribed Evolutionary Hypothesis to explain the modus operandi God used to create all that is using evolution. In my many years of study, it is the ONLY viable theory utilizing evolution to bring Man into existence which I have ever come across.

The problem with the evolution of man from lower creatures, who evolved from lower creatures, who etc etc all the way back to single celled organisms is this:
For this to work, we must get increasing complexity with time.
A simple organism must give rise to a more complex, and that to even more complex, etc. until the end result (man) is virtually incomprehensibly complex.

This move from the simple to the complex is something that is NEVER observed in nature; just the opposite is true. In the natural world, the complex which we observe is constantly breaking down into the simple. The watch wears out, the computer stops functioning, shiny steel knife rusts away into it's basic elements. Nothing EVER moves the other way; yet for evolution to bring us about from single celled organisms, it HAS to move the other way.

Prof. Davison postulates that God created basic creatures with the genetic imprinting already in them that would bring about future increases in complexity!

The main line evolutionists, of course, ridicule him for this because he is a noted scientist who DARES to mention the possibility that God had any part in our existence - -

Prof. Davison has been published in several peer-reviewed journals, has published a book as well, and I have with his permission re-printed several of his papers on my discussion group, Talk About Origins, HERE.

If you are interested, go there and download them soon - due to complete inability to locate any Atheistic Evolutionists who are willing to debate the issue, I will be closing that forum in the near future strictly due to $$.

I will be keeping open my Creation website open, however, if anyone is interested.
Genesis Record

I have not updated it for some time, but will be adding more soon.

rosierita · 11-04-2011, 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HunterAlpha1

you might want to check out what Ken Ham has to say on this subject:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/

i actually get their answers magazine.

(& enjoy reading it, when i get the chance.

lol!)

i believe they are affiliated w/ http://www.drdino.com/.

i am 100% creationist in belief. as the bible states it, is what i believe. i am fascinated w/ creation, my son even more so than i. we have dr. hovinds creation seminar on tape & they are loaded w/ scientific information. ours are vhs tapes, i need to reorder so that we can have the dvd's. my kids & i have watched them over & over through out the years.

Juker · 11-04-2011, 07:02 AM

I believe, as the Bible states, that God created man in His own image.

And if we evolved from apes, why are there still apes? What are they, slow learners who didn't get the memo? Left behind? Left out? Maybe the ACLU should file a lawsuit on their behalf - the disenfranchised nonevolutionized primate.

I admit to being baffled, verily yea, even vexed, dare I say amused, by comedic theories of evolution. "The Supreme Ruler of the Universe, Who existed before time began, couldn't possibly have created all those complex life forms - but it is entirely reasonable to think that we transformed ourselves from dirt and monkeys and primordial ooze. Yup, that must have been what happened."

I recall a ditty we sang in Sunday School back in the early 60s: "God created man in His own image, God created man in His own image, Let the monkey climb the tree, He's no kin at all to me, For God created man in His own image."

Juker · 11-04-2011, 07:14 AM

p.s.

Whenever I find myself questioning God and His ways, or thinking "I'd have done this or that, Lord..." I to to Job 38 through 40:2 and get all my answers from Him. This passage is nothing short of staggering.

1Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,

2Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

3Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.

4Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

5Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
......
1Moreover the LORD answered Job, and said,

2Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.

carver · 11-04-2011, 07:51 AM

That's a good choice of verse Juker! I also believe that God created man, just as the Bible says he did. I believe what I see, and read, in the Bible. I don't try to twist anything, I don't try to change anything, and I don't look to man for understanding of God's word. I look only to God, and his word.

Caneman · 11-04-2011, 09:19 AM

something didn't come from nothing...

a pretty cool side theory developing regarding this is the speed of light, more specifically that the speed of light was much much faster and has been slowing down exponentially ever since the big bang... the theory is called "c-decay"... this accounts for the biblical account of the earth only being 6000-8000 years old...

also, CERN (the giant atomic super collider) just discovered that some atomic particles may actually be faster than the speed of light... a scientific heresy!

Archie · 11-04-2011, 10:04 PM

Jack, I'm with you. God is without doubt the Designer, Engineer, Builder and Sustainer of the entire Universe - and anything else that might exist outside (?) the Universe. The word 'day' in Genesis - indeed throughout most of the Old Testament - is the Hebrew word 'yon' which means a 24 hour day, or a period of time such as '...in the day of David...' The text of Genesis chapter one clearly shows what is called a 'day' is not a 24 hour period based on the rotation of the Earth.

I also think God has a lot more 'time' to do things than most Christians - including Ken Ham and Hank Hanegraaff - give Him credit. However, at some point the ability to question HOW God worked Creation became politically incorrect in the modern church.

The dating of the Creation of the World was done by James Ussher, Bishop of Armagh. It is loosely based on Biblical texts, but is absolutely not part of the canon of the Bible. It is something 'added on' by a faction of Christianity. An integral part of Bishop Ussher's book, Annals of the World is the end of the world - according to Ussher, the man who determined the world was created in 4004 B. C. - happened in 1997. This fulfilled the 6,000 years of the world's existence mandated by the Six Days of Creation. For some reason, this part gets ignored a lot in this 'day'.

I believe God is a just a bit more patient, a bit more powerful and a lot more imaginative than the YEC faction believes. At the same time, I'm sure I don't give God enough credit for just how patient, powerful and imaginative He is. But then, one cannot stuff the infinite into the finite.

jack404 · 11-04-2011, 10:13 PM

actually the more i learn about Science , the more i see God's hand in it all ..

and i am still in awe at it all and now we are getting to the very very small , to me anyway, its getting clearer and clearer

American Leader · 11-04-2011, 10:28 PM

I'm with Juker all the way. I find it incredible how people continue to question Gods ability to do whatever he wants anyway he wants. We poor humans just aren't satisfied unless we have the answer to everything. We just discussed the Blessed Trinity the other night and tried to figure that one out. I think when it comes to God we would do ourselves a favor to just accept Him!

Python · 11-05-2011, 02:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by American Leader

I'm with Juker all the way. I find it incredible how people continue to question Gods ability to do whatever he wants anyway he wants. We poor humans just aren't satisfied unless we have the answer to everything. We just discussed the Blessed Trinity the other night and tried to figure that one out. I think when it comes to God we would do ourselves a favor to just accept Him!

permafrost · 11-05-2011, 05:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jack404

actually the more i learn about Science , the more i see God's hand in it all ..

and i am still in awe at it all and now we are getting to the very very small , to me anyway, its getting clearer and clearer

100% with you on the fractal thing. It appears the smaller things get the more they repeat. I'm not sure, but i believe some stunning revelations are coming our way. have you played with fractal antennas yet? I do not believe the universe is in chaos. It is in perfect harmony. Not a man made idea of static balance. That doesn't exist. Change is the harmonious factor. Fractals are fascinating. I'm a strict evolutionist, though.

It seems infinity goes in both directions. I have the strangest feeling it all meets somewhere.
PS- I believe when man became aware of himself( Eve eating from the tree of knowledge), that is when we recieved a soul. Why couldn't she have eaten from the tree of immortality, while she was at it?

rosierita · 11-05-2011, 05:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by permafrost

100% with you on the fractal thing. It appears the smaller things get the more they repeat. I'm not sure, but i believe some stunning revelations are coming our way. have you played with fractal antennas yet? I do not believe the universe is in chaos. It is in perfect harmony. Not a man made idea of static balance. That doesn't exist. Change is the harmonious factor. Fractals are fascinating. I'm a strict evolutionist, though.

It seems infinity goes in both directions. I have the strangest feeling it all meets somewhere.
PS- I believe when man became aware of himself( Eve eating from the tree of knowledge), that is when we recieved a soul. Why couldn't she have eaten from the tree of immortality, while she was at it?

we already have immortality. its just not all spent here on this side of eternity.

she was tempted w/ the tree of knowledge, by the enemy of her soul.

jack404 · 11-05-2011, 06:34 AM

immortal . pass, seen too much junk already , i actually look forward To Glory, when and if .. immortal then, yeah ok! cause i know Who's in charge of that and i know "All will be made whole "

i'm a bit further along than antennae.. try sub atomic equations
i'm very good with Chaos as well and the name now to me is a joke , its beautiful !!!

and only One could Create Such magnificence , now applied to DNA and you can go from single cell right up to what we are today , recepticals for The holy Spirit , but its very hard to show folks this wonder when its taken myself a lifetime just to get to the edge of understanding , and i really dont have the words to show it as it should be shown ..

from the quarks to Galaxies , they have the same numbers , transpose those numbers to cellular life , as what the folks who are playing with DNA now are doing and i see The Hand of God . and they match , but i warn you now , the numbers are HUGE ..

i dont care if i'm wrong somewhere as i know i am not perfect , but i do believes it shows in me my faith in God is well placed and not a esoteric thing , my faith has been reaffirmed by what i study and learn

THERE IS a Divine creator of all we see and touch ( full stop)

does all this show me more about God ? not really as all i see is already in The Good Book , but it does allow me to see the meaning behind it in a very few cases

And its taught me a lot , things in God's time dont equate to our time , and that through Him ALL things are not just possible , but likely ...

If He says something , it'll happen ... when or how i have stopped worrying about .. as i know in my heart it will come to pass , in my time or not is not important , only that Our God does what he says .. the only part of me that really matters to Him is the bit most of us neglect, our Souls ..

so i pass my days as active as a i can be to make as much right as i can , because i do not know how long His plan will take to pass , so i better be busy till then or i pass on , but no matter what i do , His plan rolls on in His time , not mine or this worlds ..

like i said this is a personal belief , i dont try to teach it , spread it , or say its correct , but i do look for outside idea's feedback etc

maybe its my way of seeing why things are as they are , maybe i worry too much , maybe i seen too much and seek explanations ..

it dont really matter i suppose as one day i will get all the answers i am after , but i suppose then it wont matter much eh ..

keeps me busy though .. and for now , thats ok ( again, for me )

permafrost · 11-05-2011, 07:32 AM

Most people look and underbrush and trees and see a jumble of chaos. If you look closely you will see self-symmetry, a pattern that repeats from the tiniest leaf to the mightiest oak. Indeed , Jack, the beauty in this is magnificent and difficult to describe! Chaos does not exist. It definitely makes you believe that a greater hand is at work. I personally haven't decided what that hand is yet. I'm glad others have found their spiritual fullfillment. Sprituality is as necessary for personal health as is good blood pressure or all your organs functioning properly. Neglect it at your own peril.

ampaterry · 11-05-2011, 08:21 AM

If we are voting, I would cast my vote for a young earth, based on the evidence rather than scripture. It was this evidence that led me from a history of a billion years for our planet (one billion was what we were taught when I was in school) in the first place, LONG before I accepted Christ or believed the Bible.

Usher did make a mistake, though. He ignored the Jewish practice, when writing historical naratives, of ignoring generations in which nothing noteworthy happened. "Begat" can indeed mean father - but it can also mean grand father, or even great grand father. This is why, IMHO, his calculations were off.
But - again IMHO - he was not off by as much as one order of magnitude.

jack404 · 11-05-2011, 08:45 AM

oh i'm not stuck on the 6 billion year bit myself but i cannot see 6000 years as a top figure via logic .. and i dont get the feeling i'm off track on this either

theres a big deal with the moon that'd take months to explain and a few other things , but yeah i'm more young to mid earth thinking .. i dont think anyone "knows" or can even Guess close .. i'm not real worried about the age of the planets so much , but by the process from the big bang , through the many iterations to create the various stars to make the heavier elements and end up where we are , on a iron and granite rock , the perfect distance from a young benign star

it's a simple statement , what we have is such a fluke that a gazillion cosmos's could appear and die and be reborn without achieving this .. and the pattern that got us here , Narr

that aint chance ,

people look for the unifying equation for string theory and a few others

actually its in front of their noses ( and everywhere else) if they cared to look ..

ampaterry · 11-05-2011, 09:21 AM

Agent Mulder said "The truth is out there - "

Really, the truth is right here, just as you said Jack -

Caneman · 11-05-2011, 10:34 AM

the scientists say the earth is something like 13 billion years old... they do this using carbon dating, which relies on assuming that the half life of a specific carbon atom has always been constant... but what if the half life was not always the same since the big bang? that is the whole point with the c-decay theory where it is proposed the speed of light was much faster at creation (thus half lives is atoms would be faster as well - an Aussie scientist named Barry Setterfield has done much research on c-decay and received a lot of persecution from the scientific community over it, you can read his work online as it is very interesting, he is a NT Christian as well)... c-decay helps answer questions currently plaquing the physicists who study these things, but Einstein said the speed of light is constant and they take it as Gospel... and Galileo said the earth was round

ampaterry · 11-05-2011, 12:55 PM

To be perfectly accurate, Caneman, carbon dating only works for much lower ages than that - there are other radiometric dating methods based on the decay of other elements that are used for these much longer dates.
But you are 100% accurate; they are all based upon assumptions regarding decay rates always being constant, AND they are based on knowing the ORIGINAL ratio of parent to daughter element.
The fact that they are innacurate is PROVEN by the simple fact that dendochronology (counting tree-rings) PROVED that Carbon dating was off by some amount. In fact, this discovered difference is now used as a CORRECTION FACTOR when using Carbon 14 dating.
What is the 'correction factor' with Uranium, strontium and the other radisotope dating methods used for the much longer ages? NO ONE KNOWS!!

Songman · 11-05-2011, 01:21 PM

More and more scientists are starting to give credence to creation. Of course, the hardliners aren't going to change their minds regardless of what science says. Personally, I believe in Creation as described in the Bible.. but I also know that evolution does exists. No, we haven't changed from slime to monkees to us.. But humans, and all parts of nature, evolve to their environment. That doesn't take anything away from our Creation by God.

jack404 · 11-05-2011, 05:25 PM

caneman the folks here who have cracked the synthetic diamond code sent some diamonds to somewhere ( forget sorry some prestigious place) to be tested and the big wigs all agreed they where natural diamond formed back when the diamonds where mainly formed , the things where 4 months old not the hundreds of millions

carbon dating is good for stable stuff most of the time , any coalification no stability , any petro chemical action , not reliable , and now the pressure creation aspect throws carbon testing way out too

Terry i get part of my numbers from barry's work

ampaterry · 11-06-2011, 04:26 AM

Songman, you are right; NO ONE disagrees with the TRUE definition of evolution; living things change over time - always have, always will. There is not a farmer, rancher, or animal breeder that does not DEPEND on this fact.
But this other idea, that a fish crawls out of the water and THROUGH NATURAL MEANS his offspring grow legs to run around on, is made up out of whole cloth. Any such claim is completely baseless, and is only promoted by those whose true desire is not the expanding of knowledge, but the elimination of any need for a Creator.
Oh, some ALLOW a God to exist, but only providing he never DOES anything - -

jack404 · 11-06-2011, 04:49 AM

how about this as a alternate way to look at it all

God the programmer

through a code that permeates the universe the grand code controls everything .

so as thing "evolve" they do so not by "nature" but in a controled progression of steps , each preknown by The Master Programmer

things evolve to their designed state , those that dont comply become extinct
and only the approved designs go on

we, all things, did not have a choice to go another way

the grand design was set and here we are

imagine a program so complex it could do all this and create far more complex stuff outta simpler stuff , it'd take a planet just to house it

or would it

today we have .zip files and .rar a form of compression and we think its great

but look at fractals , in a snow flake is more data in crystal growth than we can fit on 9 DVD disks

the best micro CAD program to duplicate a snow flake is 79 Gigabytes and no 2 snowflakes are the same that we can find ...

we are as we where supposed to be from whenever it all started and no matter how long it took , here we are as GOD, the master programmer planned

and although we are not perfect , through Christs's simple act of sacrifice , we all , every Human being on the planet today , can be made perfect and live in perfection , when our earthly time is finished

aint that cool !

11-04-2011, 12:49 AM	#1
jack404 Former Guest Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Australia Contributor Posts: 17,622	creation big topic and i know Terry has a lot of interest in this area i'm a creationist evolutionist i believe God made the heaven and the earth and everything in the universe but not in a day but in His "Day" i believe He got the Big bang going and things rolled on from their ... to the point that we developed to the point where we stopped being just a evolutionary critter , to one that could hold a soul and with that soul came knowledge of God a short Video for you all http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCsA2sFdjv8 see what you think , i know some folks will be upset by this , i aint saying i'm right , i am saying this is what i have come to believe from study and observation and prayer .. some folks have big objections to say we came from monkeys but thats not correct in my belief .. the ape path was a tool God used to create us from star dust to all the way to life via cellular growth and all the things in nature as they are all from God again what i personally think , just me , no hassling folks what they think PS ever notice a common theme throughout the galaxy ? the stars to our DNA all have something in common Fractal maths -->

11-04-2011, 01:18 AM	#2
HunterAlpha1 Former Guest Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Yorktown, VA Posts: 1,049	Re: creation you might want to check out what Ken Ham has to say on this subject: http://www.answersingenesis.org/

11-04-2011, 05:59 AM	#3
ampaterry TFF Admin Staff Chaplain Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: West Tennessee Contributor Posts: 6,283	Re: creation I am indeed a firm creationist. I KNOW that God created all that is, including us. I BELIEVE he did this through special, fiat creation; ex nihilo, if you will. And of course, I could be wrong - He is, after all, God, and could have created us through whatever means he chose to use. I have a friend, John Davison, who is prof. emeritus of zoology from the University of Vermont. He has written extensively on origins, and has come up with the Proscribed Evolutionary Hypothesis to explain the modus operandi God used to create all that is using evolution. In my many years of study, it is the ONLY viable theory utilizing evolution to bring Man into existence which I have ever come across. The problem with the evolution of man from lower creatures, who evolved from lower creatures, who etc etc all the way back to single celled organisms is this: For this to work, we must get increasing complexity with time. A simple organism must give rise to a more complex, and that to even more complex, etc. until the end result (man) is virtually incomprehensibly complex. This move from the simple to the complex is something that is NEVER observed in nature; just the opposite is true. In the natural world, the complex which we observe is constantly breaking down into the simple. The watch wears out, the computer stops functioning, shiny steel knife rusts away into it's basic elements. Nothing EVER moves the other way; yet for evolution to bring us about from single celled organisms, it HAS to move the other way. Prof. Davison postulates that God created basic creatures with the genetic imprinting already in them that would bring about future increases in complexity! The main line evolutionists, of course, ridicule him for this because he is a noted scientist who DARES to mention the possibility that God had any part in our existence - - Prof. Davison has been published in several peer-reviewed journals, has published a book as well, and I have with his permission re-printed several of his papers on my discussion group, Talk About Origins, HERE. If you are interested, go there and download them soon - due to complete inability to locate any Atheistic Evolutionists who are willing to debate the issue, I will be closing that forum in the near future strictly due to $$. I will be keeping open my Creation website open, however, if anyone is interested. Genesis Record I have not updated it for some time, but will be adding more soon. __________________ A woman who demands further gun control legislation is like a chicken who roots for Colonel Sanders. Larry Elder

11-04-2011, 07:02 AM	#5
Juker Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Land of Lincoln Contributor Posts: 2,872	Re: creation I believe, as the Bible states, that God created man in His own image. And if we evolved from apes, why are there still apes? What are they, slow learners who didn't get the memo? Left behind? Left out? Maybe the ACLU should file a lawsuit on their behalf - the disenfranchised nonevolutionized primate. I admit to being baffled, verily yea, even vexed, dare I say amused, by comedic theories of evolution. "The Supreme Ruler of the Universe, Who existed before time began, couldn't possibly have created all those complex life forms - but it is entirely reasonable to think that we transformed ourselves from dirt and monkeys and primordial ooze. Yup, that must have been what happened." I recall a ditty we sang in Sunday School back in the early 60s: "God created man in His own image, God created man in His own image, Let the monkey climb the tree, He's no kin at all to me, For God created man in His own image." __________________ SHOOT FIRST. SHOOT SECOND. MOST IMPORTANTLY, BE THE MAN WHO'S SHOOTING LAST.

11-04-2011, 07:14 AM	#6
Juker Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Land of Lincoln Contributor Posts: 2,872	Re: creation p.s. Whenever I find myself questioning God and His ways, or thinking "I'd have done this or that, Lord..." I to to Job 38 through 40:2 and get all my answers from Him. This passage is nothing short of staggering. 1Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, 2Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? 3Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. 4Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. 5Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? 6Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; 7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? ...... 1Moreover the LORD answered Job, and said, 2Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it. __________________ SHOOT FIRST. SHOOT SECOND. MOST IMPORTANTLY, BE THE MAN WHO'S SHOOTING LAST.

11-04-2011, 07:51 AM	#7
carver TFF Moderator/Host Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: DAV, Deep in the Pineywoods of East Texas, just west of Shreveport, LA Contributor Posts: 11,266	Re: creation That's a good choice of verse Juker! I also believe that God created man, just as the Bible says he did. I believe what I see, and read, in the Bible. I don't try to twist anything, I don't try to change anything, and I don't look to man for understanding of God's word. I look only to God, and his word. __________________ Y'all be safe now, ya hear! Lamentations Chapter 5: 1. Remember, O LORD, what is come upon us: consider, and behold our reproach. 2. Our inheritance is turned to strangers, our houses to aliens. 3. We are orphans and fatherless, our mothers [are] as widows. 5. Our necks [are] under persecution: we labour, [and] have no rest. 16. The crown is fallen [from] our head: woe unto us, that we have sinned! 21. Turn thou us unto thee, O LORD, and we shall be turned; renew our days as of old.

11-04-2011, 09:19 AM	#8
Caneman Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 1,263	Re: creation something didn't come from nothing... a pretty cool side theory developing regarding this is the speed of light, more specifically that the speed of light was much much faster and has been slowing down exponentially ever since the big bang... the theory is called "c-decay"... this accounts for the biblical account of the earth only being 6000-8000 years old... also, CERN (the giant atomic super collider) just discovered that some atomic particles may actually be faster than the speed of light... a scientific heresy! Last edited by Caneman; 11-04-2011 at 10:52 AM..

11-04-2011, 10:04 PM	#9
Archie V.I.P. Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Hastings, Nebraska; the Heartland! Posts: 294	Re: creation Jack, I'm with you. God is without doubt the Designer, Engineer, Builder and Sustainer of the entire Universe - and anything else that might exist outside (?) the Universe. The word 'day' in Genesis - indeed throughout most of the Old Testament - is the Hebrew word 'yon' which means a 24 hour day, or a period of time such as '...in the day of David...' The text of Genesis chapter one clearly shows what is called a 'day' is not a 24 hour period based on the rotation of the Earth. I also think God has a lot more 'time' to do things than most Christians - including Ken Ham and Hank Hanegraaff - give Him credit. However, at some point the ability to question HOW God worked Creation became politically incorrect in the modern church. The dating of the Creation of the World was done by James Ussher, Bishop of Armagh. It is loosely based on Biblical texts, but is absolutely not part of the canon of the Bible. It is something 'added on' by a faction of Christianity. An integral part of Bishop Ussher's book, Annals of the World is the end of the world - according to Ussher, the man who determined the world was created in 4004 B. C. - happened in 1997. This fulfilled the 6,000 years of the world's existence mandated by the Six Days of Creation. For some reason, this part gets ignored a lot in this 'day'. I believe God is a just a bit more patient, a bit more powerful and a lot more imaginative than the YEC faction believes. At the same time, I'm sure I don't give God enough credit for just how patient, powerful and imaginative He is. But then, one cannot stuff the infinite into the finite. __________________ Be at Peace; go forth, spread enlightenment and joy to all. Wear clean underwear and take a gun. http://oldmanmontgomery.wordpress.com/ for my thoughts...

11-04-2011, 10:13 PM	#10
jack404 Former Guest Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Australia Contributor Posts: 17,622	Re: creation actually the more i learn about Science , the more i see God's hand in it all .. and i am still in awe at it all and now we are getting to the very very small , to me anyway, its getting clearer and clearer

11-04-2011, 10:28 PM	#11
American Leader Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Iowa Contributor Posts: 1,630	Re: creation I'm with Juker all the way. I find it incredible how people continue to question Gods ability to do whatever he wants anyway he wants. We poor humans just aren't satisfied unless we have the answer to everything. We just discussed the Blessed Trinity the other night and tried to figure that one out. I think when it comes to God we would do ourselves a favor to just accept Him!

11-05-2011, 06:34 AM	#15
jack404 Former Guest Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Australia Contributor Posts: 17,622	Re: creation immortal . pass, seen too much junk already , i actually look forward To Glory, when and if .. immortal then, yeah ok! cause i know Who's in charge of that and i know "All will be made whole " i'm a bit further along than antennae.. try sub atomic equations i'm very good with Chaos as well and the name now to me is a joke , its beautiful !!! and only One could Create Such magnificence , now applied to DNA and you can go from single cell right up to what we are today , recepticals for The holy Spirit , but its very hard to show folks this wonder when its taken myself a lifetime just to get to the edge of understanding , and i really dont have the words to show it as it should be shown .. from the quarks to Galaxies , they have the same numbers , transpose those numbers to cellular life , as what the folks who are playing with DNA now are doing and i see The Hand of God . and they match , but i warn you now , the numbers are HUGE .. i dont care if i'm wrong somewhere as i know i am not perfect , but i do believes it shows in me my faith in God is well placed and not a esoteric thing , my faith has been reaffirmed by what i study and learn THERE IS a Divine creator of all we see and touch ( full stop) does all this show me more about God ? not really as all i see is already in The Good Book , but it does allow me to see the meaning behind it in a very few cases And its taught me a lot , things in God's time dont equate to our time , and that through Him ALL things are not just possible , but likely ... If He says something , it'll happen ... when or how i have stopped worrying about .. as i know in my heart it will come to pass , in my time or not is not important , only that Our God does what he says .. the only part of me that really matters to Him is the bit most of us neglect, our Souls .. so i pass my days as active as a i can be to make as much right as i can , because i do not know how long His plan will take to pass , so i better be busy till then or i pass on , but no matter what i do , His plan rolls on in His time , not mine or this worlds .. like i said this is a personal belief , i dont try to teach it , spread it , or say its correct , but i do look for outside idea's feedback etc maybe its my way of seeing why things are as they are , maybe i worry too much , maybe i seen too much and seek explanations .. it dont really matter i suppose as one day i will get all the answers i am after , but i suppose then it wont matter much eh .. keeps me busy though .. and for now , thats ok ( again, for me ) Last edited by jack404; 11-05-2011 at 06:38 AM..

11-05-2011, 07:32 AM	#16
permafrost Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Oklahoma, USA Contributor Posts: 1,771	Re: creation Most people look and underbrush and trees and see a jumble of chaos. If you look closely you will see self-symmetry, a pattern that repeats from the tiniest leaf to the mightiest oak. Indeed , Jack, the beauty in this is magnificent and difficult to describe! Chaos does not exist. It definitely makes you believe that a greater hand is at work. I personally haven't decided what that hand is yet. I'm glad others have found their spiritual fullfillment. Sprituality is as necessary for personal health as is good blood pressure or all your organs functioning properly. Neglect it at your own peril. __________________ Stand and Fight

11-05-2011, 08:21 AM	#17
ampaterry TFF Admin Staff Chaplain Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: West Tennessee Contributor Posts: 6,283	Re: creation If we are voting, I would cast my vote for a young earth, based on the evidence rather than scripture. It was this evidence that led me from a history of a billion years for our planet (one billion was what we were taught when I was in school) in the first place, LONG before I accepted Christ or believed the Bible. Usher did make a mistake, though. He ignored the Jewish practice, when writing historical naratives, of ignoring generations in which nothing noteworthy happened. "Begat" can indeed mean father - but it can also mean grand father, or even great grand father. This is why, IMHO, his calculations were off. But - again IMHO - he was not off by as much as one order of magnitude. __________________ A woman who demands further gun control legislation is like a chicken who roots for Colonel Sanders. Larry Elder

11-05-2011, 08:45 AM	#18
jack404 Former Guest Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Australia Contributor Posts: 17,622	Re: creation oh i'm not stuck on the 6 billion year bit myself but i cannot see 6000 years as a top figure via logic .. and i dont get the feeling i'm off track on this either theres a big deal with the moon that'd take months to explain and a few other things , but yeah i'm more young to mid earth thinking .. i dont think anyone "knows" or can even Guess close .. i'm not real worried about the age of the planets so much , but by the process from the big bang , through the many iterations to create the various stars to make the heavier elements and end up where we are , on a iron and granite rock , the perfect distance from a young benign star it's a simple statement , what we have is such a fluke that a gazillion cosmos's could appear and die and be reborn without achieving this .. and the pattern that got us here , Narr that aint chance , people look for the unifying equation for string theory and a few others actually its in front of their noses ( and everywhere else) if they cared to look ..

11-05-2011, 09:21 AM	#19
ampaterry TFF Admin Staff Chaplain Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: West Tennessee Contributor Posts: 6,283	Re: creation Agent Mulder said "The truth is out there - " Really, the truth is right here, just as you said Jack - __________________ A woman who demands further gun control legislation is like a chicken who roots for Colonel Sanders. Larry Elder

11-05-2011, 10:34 AM	#20
Caneman Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 1,263	Re: creation the scientists say the earth is something like 13 billion years old... they do this using carbon dating, which relies on assuming that the half life of a specific carbon atom has always been constant... but what if the half life was not always the same since the big bang? that is the whole point with the c-decay theory where it is proposed the speed of light was much faster at creation (thus half lives is atoms would be faster as well - an Aussie scientist named Barry Setterfield has done much research on c-decay and received a lot of persecution from the scientific community over it, you can read his work online as it is very interesting, he is a NT Christian as well)... c-decay helps answer questions currently plaquing the physicists who study these things, but Einstein said the speed of light is constant and they take it as Gospel... and Galileo said the earth was round Last edited by Caneman; 11-05-2011 at 10:35 AM..

11-05-2011, 12:55 PM	#21
ampaterry TFF Admin Staff Chaplain Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: West Tennessee Contributor Posts: 6,283	Re: creation To be perfectly accurate, Caneman, carbon dating only works for much lower ages than that - there are other radiometric dating methods based on the decay of other elements that are used for these much longer dates. But you are 100% accurate; they are all based upon assumptions regarding decay rates always being constant, AND they are based on knowing the ORIGINAL ratio of parent to daughter element. The fact that they are innacurate is PROVEN by the simple fact that dendochronology (counting tree-rings) PROVED that Carbon dating was off by some amount. In fact, this discovered difference is now used as a CORRECTION FACTOR when using Carbon 14 dating. What is the 'correction factor' with Uranium, strontium and the other radisotope dating methods used for the much longer ages? NO ONE KNOWS!! __________________ A woman who demands further gun control legislation is like a chicken who roots for Colonel Sanders. Larry Elder

11-05-2011, 01:21 PM	#22
Songman V.I.P. Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Houston, TX Contributor Posts: 272	Re: creation More and more scientists are starting to give credence to creation. Of course, the hardliners aren't going to change their minds regardless of what science says. Personally, I believe in Creation as described in the Bible.. but I also know that evolution does exists. No, we haven't changed from slime to monkees to us.. But humans, and all parts of nature, evolve to their environment. That doesn't take anything away from our Creation by God.

11-05-2011, 05:25 PM	#23
jack404 Former Guest Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Australia Contributor Posts: 17,622	Re: creation caneman the folks here who have cracked the synthetic diamond code sent some diamonds to somewhere ( forget sorry some prestigious place) to be tested and the big wigs all agreed they where natural diamond formed back when the diamonds where mainly formed , the things where 4 months old not the hundreds of millions carbon dating is good for stable stuff most of the time , any coalification no stability , any petro chemical action , not reliable , and now the pressure creation aspect throws carbon testing way out too Terry i get part of my numbers from barry's work Last edited by jack404; 11-05-2011 at 05:26 PM..

11-06-2011, 04:26 AM	#24
ampaterry TFF Admin Staff Chaplain Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: West Tennessee Contributor Posts: 6,283	Re: creation Songman, you are right; NO ONE disagrees with the TRUE definition of evolution; living things change over time - always have, always will. There is not a farmer, rancher, or animal breeder that does not DEPEND on this fact. But this other idea, that a fish crawls out of the water and THROUGH NATURAL MEANS his offspring grow legs to run around on, is made up out of whole cloth. Any such claim is completely baseless, and is only promoted by those whose true desire is not the expanding of knowledge, but the elimination of any need for a Creator. Oh, some ALLOW a God to exist, but only providing he never DOES anything - - __________________ A woman who demands further gun control legislation is like a chicken who roots for Colonel Sanders. Larry Elder

11-06-2011, 04:49 AM	#25
jack404 Former Guest Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Australia Contributor Posts: 17,622	Re: creation how about this as a alternate way to look at it all God the programmer through a code that permeates the universe the grand code controls everything . so as thing "evolve" they do so not by "nature" but in a controled progression of steps , each preknown by The Master Programmer things evolve to their designed state , those that dont comply become extinct and only the approved designs go on we, all things, did not have a choice to go another way the grand design was set and here we are imagine a program so complex it could do all this and create far more complex stuff outta simpler stuff , it'd take a planet just to house it or would it today we have .zip files and .rar a form of compression and we think its great but look at fractals , in a snow flake is more data in crystal growth than we can fit on 9 DVD disks the best micro CAD program to duplicate a snow flake is 79 Gigabytes and no 2 snowflakes are the same that we can find ... we are as we where supposed to be from whenever it all started and no matter how long it took , here we are as GOD, the master programmer planned and although we are not perfect , through Christs's simple act of sacrifice , we all , every Human being on the planet today , can be made perfect and live in perfection , when our earthly time is finished aint that cool !