Lucky shot

todd51 · 11-04-2011, 09:12 PM

I'm just an old plinker but yesterday while I was raking leaves and doing other range maintenance the others were shooting a scoped pistol at the hanging steel eight inch plates at 50, 75 and 100 yards. Well it came my time and I had to defend my reputation and all I had was my S&W 19 and 17 both six inch and open iron sights. I chose the Model 17 rested my forearms (no way I can be steady enough off hand) and sighted down range. Well heck, my front sight blade completely covers that eight inch plate. So using CCI standard velocity 40gr. I held what I thought was five inches above the plate that was now completely covered by the front sight and squeezed one off. Clint a hit. Now I didn't try another shot

but I am sure I will be called on to do that again. What I would like to know is are there any hints and helps for shooting open handgun sights at that distance where the front sight blade is hiding the target. My sights are set for 25 yard plinking. I read here and am envious of those that can make those long range shots many a lot further than my mere 100 yards but that is all the range I have. Any suggestions to help the old man keep his reputation would be appreciated, ha.

CHW2021 · 11-05-2011, 07:53 AM

I believe that the approved method for coping with your problem is a technique called "prayer" in which the shooter does all he can (as you did), take a "scientific-wildass guess" and pull the trigger as smoothly as possible while praying you got it all right.

Occasionally, the ol'farts get it right and call it skill.

3/2 STA SS · 11-05-2011, 08:53 AM

Nothing like good old Kentucky Windage.....''Oh yeah, I meant to do that". Good stuff!!

carver · 11-05-2011, 08:57 AM

http://elmerkeithwasdeadright.blogsp...-who-ever.html
Long-range handgun shooting is done from all the conventional positions, such as prone and offhand, and includes an Elmer Keith innovation called the sitting back rest, where you sit on the ground with your back braced against a tree or other vertical backing and your knees are raised to provide support for your arms while shooting. Keith also gives some unconventional advice on long-range sighting with factory iron sights. The problem is, if you just raise a conventional sight picture higher than you want to hit, you obscure the target, and aiming somewhere in the sky above your target can hardly be considered precise gunhandling. The Keith method is to hold the front sight blade up above the rear notch a certain measure. It takes a while to determine how far to raise the front sight for different ranges, but the technique can be surprisingly accurate out to about 500 yards. (From what I have read, Keith filed horizontal groves in the front sight of his pistol, and inlaid those groves with thin gold wire.)
The Keith method for long-range sighting with iron sights, whether fixed or adjustable already at maximum elevation, is to hold the front sight blade up above the rear notch a certain measure. It takes a while to determine how far to raise the front sight for different ranges, but the technique can be surprisingly accurate out to about 500 yards. The main problem with just raising a conventional sight picture higher than you want to hit is that the sight or the barrel will obscure the target.

Jim Hauff · 11-05-2011, 09:32 AM

+1 on what Carver has posted. I use the hold front sight on target and lower the rear sight method. That way you can see your strikes and work on setting your "drop" - works great off hand or from the bench.
I've fired a few cylinders full of .38S&W hand loads (from a friend) of quite low power status/suitable for the old hinged frame handguns - and was able to hit 8" targets at 100+ yards - after walking them in by observing the strike. The problem with those 600 fps loads - it takes what seems like forever to get out to the target - time enough to take a swig of coffee and smoke 1/2 a cigar.

carver · 11-05-2011, 09:38 AM

I have used this method for many years, and Keith proved that is does work.

todd51 · 11-05-2011, 09:54 AM

Alright !!! That was just what I was hoping to find out. Thanks Carver and Jim. Last year I had cataract surgery and opted for the lens that correct most of a life times dealing with astigmatism and it has removed the need for corrective lens in most things I do. It opened up the opportunity to once again use iron sights. I am looking forward to trying what you have suggested. This will add some new fun to times at the range. I just wish I had more than a 100 yards to play around with. Again thanks for the help.

3/2 STA SS · 11-06-2011, 09:49 AM

Kinda like creedmore? Similar technique?

todd51 · 11-12-2011, 08:47 PM

Well you all steered me right. Three of us made a quick trip to the range today to refresh the deer feeder and get in a little plinking. I used the S&W 17 again with CCI Mini Mags on those 8" steel plates at 100 yards. I set the plate on top of the front sight (at that range the front sight post is wider than the plate) and then let a strong 1/16 of an inch of the front sight show above the rear sight. With my forearms resting on some bags I was able to get hits on that plate "most" of the time. Neat. And I thank you all.

BETH · 11-12-2011, 10:20 PM

Todd u have the front sight even with the top of the plate?

todd51 · 11-12-2011, 10:46 PM

No Beth, I had the top of the front sight at the bottom edge of the plate. The plate looks like it is sitting on top of the front sight blade.

BETH · 11-12-2011, 11:24 PM

at how many yds

todd51 · 11-12-2011, 11:28 PM

BETH · 11-12-2011, 11:38 PM

i would have thought top of front sight would be at top of target since the ammo drops?

doubs43 · 11-13-2011, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BETH

i would have thought top of front sight would be at top of target since the ammo drops?

Instead of keeping the top of the front sight even with the top of the rear sight and aiming over the target, you use a 6 o'clock hold with the target sitting on the front sight and then lower the top of the rear sight to intersect the front sight below the top. By varying the amount of front sight that is above the top of the rear sight you can raise or lower the distance and point of impact.

11-04-2011, 09:12 PM	#1
todd51 Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Central, Ohio Contributor Posts: 2,570	Lucky shot I'm just an old plinker but yesterday while I was raking leaves and doing other range maintenance the others were shooting a scoped pistol at the hanging steel eight inch plates at 50, 75 and 100 yards. Well it came my time and I had to defend my reputation and all I had was my S&W 19 and 17 both six inch and open iron sights. I chose the Model 17 rested my forearms (no way I can be steady enough off hand) and sighted down range. Well heck, my front sight blade completely covers that eight inch plate. So using CCI standard velocity 40gr. I held what I thought was five inches above the plate that was now completely covered by the front sight and squeezed one off. Clint a hit. Now I didn't try another shot but I am sure I will be called on to do that again. What I would like to know is are there any hints and helps for shooting open handgun sights at that distance where the front sight blade is hiding the target. My sights are set for 25 yard plinking. I read here and am envious of those that can make those long range shots many a lot further than my mere 100 yards but that is all the range I have. Any suggestions to help the old man keep his reputation would be appreciated, ha. __________________ Retired Praefectus Vigilum NRA Endowment Member -->

11-05-2011, 07:53 AM	#2
CHW2021 V.I.P. Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Louisiana Posts: 467	Re: Lucky shot I believe that the approved method for coping with your problem is a technique called "prayer" in which the shooter does all he can (as you did), take a "scientific-wildass guess" and pull the trigger as smoothly as possible while praying you got it all right. Occasionally, the ol'farts get it right and call it skill.

11-05-2011, 08:53 AM	#3
3/2 STA SS Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Tampa Bay Area, FL Posts: 1,435	Re: Lucky shot Nothing like good old Kentucky Windage.....''Oh yeah, I meant to do that". Good stuff!! __________________ MORS DE CONTACTUS-DEATH ON CONTACT

11-05-2011, 08:57 AM	#4
carver TFF Moderator/Host Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: DAV, Deep in the Pineywoods of East Texas, just west of Shreveport, LA Contributor Posts: 11,219	Re: Lucky shot http://elmerkeithwasdeadright.blogsp...-who-ever.html Long-range handgun shooting is done from all the conventional positions, such as prone and offhand, and includes an Elmer Keith innovation called the sitting back rest, where you sit on the ground with your back braced against a tree or other vertical backing and your knees are raised to provide support for your arms while shooting. Keith also gives some unconventional advice on long-range sighting with factory iron sights. The problem is, if you just raise a conventional sight picture higher than you want to hit, you obscure the target, and aiming somewhere in the sky above your target can hardly be considered precise gunhandling. The Keith method is to hold the front sight blade up above the rear notch a certain measure. It takes a while to determine how far to raise the front sight for different ranges, but the technique can be surprisingly accurate out to about 500 yards. (From what I have read, Keith filed horizontal groves in the front sight of his pistol, and inlaid those groves with thin gold wire.) The Keith method for long-range sighting with iron sights, whether fixed or adjustable already at maximum elevation, is to hold the front sight blade up above the rear notch a certain measure. It takes a while to determine how far to raise the front sight for different ranges, but the technique can be surprisingly accurate out to about 500 yards. The main problem with just raising a conventional sight picture higher than you want to hit is that the sight or the barrel will obscure the target. Attached Images __________________ Y'all be safe now, ya hear! Lamentations Chapter 5: 1. Remember, O LORD, what is come upon us: consider, and behold our reproach. 2. Our inheritance is turned to strangers, our houses to aliens. 3. We are orphans and fatherless, our mothers [are] as widows. 5. Our necks [are] under persecution: we labour, [and] have no rest. 16. The crown is fallen [from] our head: woe unto us, that we have sinned! 21. Turn thou us unto thee, O LORD, and we shall be turned; renew our days as of old.

11-05-2011, 09:32 AM	#5
Jim Hauff Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Lehigh Valley, PA Posts: 2,980	Re: Lucky shot +1 on what Carver has posted. I use the hold front sight on target and lower the rear sight method. That way you can see your strikes and work on setting your "drop" - works great off hand or from the bench. I've fired a few cylinders full of .38S&W hand loads (from a friend) of quite low power status/suitable for the old hinged frame handguns - and was able to hit 8" targets at 100+ yards - after walking them in by observing the strike. The problem with those 600 fps loads - it takes what seems like forever to get out to the target - time enough to take a swig of coffee and smoke 1/2 a cigar. __________________ Jim Hauff ~ H&R Collector In Memory of Bill Goforth and Jim Ritchie

11-05-2011, 09:38 AM	#6
carver TFF Moderator/Host Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: DAV, Deep in the Pineywoods of East Texas, just west of Shreveport, LA Contributor Posts: 11,219	Re: Lucky shot I have used this method for many years, and Keith proved that is does work. __________________ Y'all be safe now, ya hear! Lamentations Chapter 5: 1. Remember, O LORD, what is come upon us: consider, and behold our reproach. 2. Our inheritance is turned to strangers, our houses to aliens. 3. We are orphans and fatherless, our mothers [are] as widows. 5. Our necks [are] under persecution: we labour, [and] have no rest. 16. The crown is fallen [from] our head: woe unto us, that we have sinned! 21. Turn thou us unto thee, O LORD, and we shall be turned; renew our days as of old.

11-05-2011, 09:54 AM	#7
todd51 Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Central, Ohio Contributor Posts: 2,570	Re: Lucky shot Alright !!! That was just what I was hoping to find out. Thanks Carver and Jim. Last year I had cataract surgery and opted for the lens that correct most of a life times dealing with astigmatism and it has removed the need for corrective lens in most things I do. It opened up the opportunity to once again use iron sights. I am looking forward to trying what you have suggested. This will add some new fun to times at the range. I just wish I had more than a 100 yards to play around with. Again thanks for the help. __________________ Retired Praefectus Vigilum NRA Endowment Member

11-06-2011, 09:49 AM	#8
3/2 STA SS Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Tampa Bay Area, FL Posts: 1,435	Re: Lucky shot Kinda like creedmore? Similar technique? __________________ MORS DE CONTACTUS-DEATH ON CONTACT

11-12-2011, 08:47 PM	#9
todd51 Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Central, Ohio Contributor Posts: 2,570	Re: Lucky shot Well you all steered me right. Three of us made a quick trip to the range today to refresh the deer feeder and get in a little plinking. I used the S&W 17 again with CCI Mini Mags on those 8" steel plates at 100 yards. I set the plate on top of the front sight (at that range the front sight post is wider than the plate) and then let a strong 1/16 of an inch of the front sight show above the rear sight. With my forearms resting on some bags I was able to get hits on that plate "most" of the time. Neat. And I thank you all. __________________ Retired Praefectus Vigilum NRA Endowment Member

11-12-2011, 10:20 PM	#10
BETH Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: naugatuck,Ct. Contributor Posts: 6,666	Re: Lucky shot Todd u have the front sight even with the top of the plate?

11-12-2011, 10:46 PM	#11
todd51 Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Central, Ohio Contributor Posts: 2,570	Re: Lucky shot No Beth, I had the top of the front sight at the bottom edge of the plate. The plate looks like it is sitting on top of the front sight blade. __________________ Retired Praefectus Vigilum NRA Endowment Member

11-12-2011, 11:24 PM	#12
BETH Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: naugatuck,Ct. Contributor Posts: 6,666	Re: Lucky shot at how many yds

11-12-2011, 11:28 PM	#13
todd51 Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Central, Ohio Contributor Posts: 2,570	Re: Lucky shot 100 __________________ Retired Praefectus Vigilum NRA Endowment Member

11-12-2011, 11:38 PM	#14
BETH Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: naugatuck,Ct. Contributor Posts: 6,666	Re: Lucky shot i would have thought top of front sight would be at top of target since the ammo drops?