Question about .223 Cartridges

[gun runner]

I bought a new Savage .223 Model 25 on the 8th of this month. Anyways can I use any type of grain of .223 remington caliber regardless of the twist rate? I was reading something about different twist rates with the .223 of how 55-60 grain is recommened or used in a 12:1 or whatever twist rate. I really cant remember. Im not a tech in guns but Im just wondering. Stupid question but Im sure a 90 grain .223 cartridge will work in any .223 caliber rifle right? It just seems a little bit bigger of course that I see. Just wondering. Thanks

gun runner

[Daffyd]

I've found everything I wanted to know about 223/556 over at AR-15.com. Check out the Ammo Oracle there. Chock full of info

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_16/50...Forum_FAQ.html

[JLA]

Twist does matter if you wish to actually hit your target at a distance. The 9 twist is good up to 69 gr bullets, the 12 twist should be used with 50 gr and lighter. The heavier you go the more twist you need to stabilize the bullets. A 90 gr .223 load would need a 7 twist to shoot stable and it would be a single shot from any rifle.

But yes, to answer your inquiry, any ammo for .223 will chamber and shoot from your M25, the barrel twist rate only determine which of it shoots accurately.

[gun runner]

Thanks guys, yeah mine has a twist rate of 9

[gdmoody]

I have a Weatherby that has a 1:14 twist rate. I am going to experiment with 34 grain, 40 grain, and 45 grain bullets when I have another chance to do some loading (next Tuesday). I have never separated by head stamp before but I did yesterday. I am going to try to make some super accurate ammo for it. I have only shot 55 grain bullets in it until now, it shoots pretty good now, but I sure would like a five shot one hole group.

[gun runner]

Originally Posted by JLA

Twist does matter if you wish to actually hit your target at a distance. The 9 twist is good up to 69 gr bullets, the 12 twist should be used with 50 gr and lighter. The heavier you go the more twist you need to stabilize the bullets. A 90 gr .223 load would need a 7 twist to shoot stable and it would be a single shot from any rifle.

But yes, to answer your inquiry, any ammo for .223 will chamber and shoot from your M25, the barrel twist rate only determine which of it shoots accurately.

Okay your talking about accuracy but are you talking about not being able to get a group in a 1 inch target or your saying you wont even get into a 8 inch target with a 90 grain bullet. Im just wondering. I mainly am using this weapon as a javelina,hog, sparrow(jk lol) and coyote killer

[gun runner]

gdmoody, I wish you the best. I noticed you joined in 2007. I sure miss that year. Lots of good times at parties

[gun runner]

Hey JLA, which town/city you in? Heart of Texas sounds like Austin but I consider a good sized farm the heart of Texas My homeplace is mostly brush but we got some good sized coastal fields where I can set up 1500 yard targets but I just dont really have the need to invest into a scope that can reach a target that far but yeah just like hunting I forgot to add I love target practicing. Especially at beer cans full of water. When you hit a size of a 12oz beer can at a pretty good distance then that really makes you feel good. Thanks for your help!

[JLA]

Im in Godley/Joshua area.

And if you shoot bullets that are too heavy for your barrel twist rate they will keyhole the target IF they hit it. You wont get any kind of consistent accuracy at any distance. Yes itll hit the target 50 yds away and it might do it fairly accurately 100yds and beyond will most likely be shotgun patterns.

[Albtraum]

Since this is on the same topic, would a 40 grain .22LR, 40 grain .223, and 40 grain 22-250 all be optimal at the same twist rate since they're the same bullet diameter? Like, lets say 1:16" is the best twist rate for a 40 grain .22LR, would that be the same for any .22 caliber 40 grain bullet?

[rcairflr]

This website might help.

http://www.riflebarrels.com/products...wist_rates.htm

[al45lc]

My older HK93(1in12) will not stabiize the 69 gr 'penetrator' for squat, best group at 100 yds is 4-5", whereas the older 55 FMJ's will do 2" or better.

[JLA]

Originally Posted by Albtraum

Since this is on the same topic, would a 40 grain .22LR, 40 grain .223, and 40 grain 22-250 all be optimal at the same twist rate since they're the same bullet diameter? Like, lets say 1:16" is the best twist rate for a 40 grain .22LR, would that be the same for any .22 caliber 40 grain bullet?

No. Twist requirement is dependant on muzzle velocity of the cartridge. The length of the bullet determined how many RPMs it needs to 'go to sleep' in flight and RPMs is muzzle velocity X twist rate, this is why heavier bullets generally need a faster twist rate becasue as bullet weight increases muzzle velocity decreases, so the twist rate must also increase to keep the RPMs sufficient to keep the bullet stable.

Also while im attempting to explain this, think about the .22-250 VS the .223. Most of the factory chambered .22-250 rifles come with 12 twist barrels and most factory chambered .223 rifles come with 9 twist barrels, yet they can both shoot up to 69 gr bullets with equal accuracy. Its because the avg MV of a .223 shooting a 69 gr bullet is around 2800 fps and the avg MV of a 22-250 shooting the same is closer to 3500 fps.

Bullet RPM = MV X 720/Twist Rate (in inches)
.223 69 gr - 9 twist at 2800 fps = 224,000 RPM
.22-250 69 gr - 12 twist at 3500 fps = 210,000 RPM

Also, think about this.. If you have a .223 9 twist with a longer than usual barrel, say a 26" whereas most have 20" then you can shoot heavier bullets more accurately because your MV will be higher than the same bullets from the 20" tube. It diesnt mean you can run 90 grainers thru a 26" tube with a 9 inch twist accurately but it does mean if a 70 gr bullet doesnt quite stabilize from a 20" tube then it will stabilize from a 26" tube.

Make sense??

[BlackEagle]

Hi Gunrunner;
I have an old Steyer-Manlicher Tactical Elite that I got used, and have put quite a few rounds through it myself. I reload my own ammunition and have developed the "optimal recipe" for me. The 1:9 twist barrel gave 55 gr heads about a 4" group at 100 yards. 69 grain heads made a much smaller group, so I stayed with SMK 69 grain heads. Larger heads won't fit into the magazine and I can't load single rounds because of the chamber configuration. The powder load varies based on the case internal volume. For PPU cases I use 24.6 gr. N140; for PMC cases I use 22.4 gr. N140. PPU cases have thinner walls, a larger inner volume, so can accomadate more powder. Military cases have thicker walls and the literature says to reduce powder load by a given percentage. I worked up to these by starting with the minimum working load recommended by the manufacturer, and worked up to the maximum load. As I shot the rounds I paid attention to the primer in the spent case, watching for signs of overpressure. If I saw a flattened primer it indicated excessive pressure, and I stopped shooting that load and anything with a larger powder load. I watched the groupings and the powder load that gave the best group is the one I went with. I can now put 10 rounds into a 1/2" group at 100 yards. I am using Federal primers, CCI primers and some German make. For me, primers don't seem to make much difference. I use shoot'n'see targets to keep records. They peel off the target, and I can paste them in a notebook and keep notes on the load and shooting conditions.
The FNM cases I used in this picture have a similar load to the PPU cases.

[Albtraum]

Thanks JLA, I understand. Thanks for everything

[JLA]

No sweat Alb. Happy to help.

[JLA]

Originally Posted by BlackEagle

Hi Gunrunner;
I have an old Steyer-Manlicher Tactical Elite that I got used, and have put quite a few rounds through it myself. I reload my own ammunition and have developed the "optimal recipe" for me. The 1:9 twist barrel gave 55 gr heads about a 4" group at 100 yards. 69 grain heads made a much smaller group, so I stayed with SMK 69 grain heads. Larger heads won't fit into the magazine and I can't load single rounds because of the chamber configuration. The powder load varies based on the case internal volume. For PPU cases I use 24.6 gr. N140; for PMC cases I use 22.4 gr. N140. PPU cases have thinner walls, a larger inner volume, so can accomadate more powder. Military cases have thicker walls and the literature says to reduce powder load by a given percentage. I worked up to these by starting with the minimum working load recommended by the manufacturer, and worked up to the maximum load. As I shot the rounds I paid attention to the primer in the spent case, watching for signs of overpressure. If I saw a flattened primer it indicated excessive pressure, and I stopped shooting that load and anything with a larger powder load. I watched the groupings and the powder load that gave the best group is the one I went with. I can now put 10 rounds into a 1/2" group at 100 yards. I am using Federal primers, CCI primers and some German make. For me, primers don't seem to make much difference. I use shoot'n'see targets to keep records. They peel off the target, and I can paste them in a notebook and keep notes on the load and shooting conditions.
The FNM cases I used in this picture have a similar load to the PPU cases.

Heres a couple of groups I shot at 100 yds with my FILs rem 700 tactical .223. Its a 9 twist heavy 20" barrel with a zeiss conquest on top.

The load is RP brass, 69 gr SMKs, CCI450s and W748.

I was rather impressed with this loads performance from the 20 inch barrel.

[BlackEagle]

Originally Posted by JLA

Heres a couple of groups I shot at 100 yds with my FILs rem 700 tactical .223. Its a 9 twist heavy 20" barrel with a zeiss conquest on top.

The load is RP brass, 69 gr SMKs, CCI450s and W748.

I was rather impressed with this loads performance from the 20 inch barrel.

Nice work. That's something to be proud of. Don't you just love it when a group comes together?

[JLA]

yep. makes it all worthwhile.

[bluesea112]

Originally Posted by JLA

Heres a couple of groups I shot at 100 yds with my FILs rem 700 tactical .223. Its a 9 twist heavy 20" barrel with a zeiss conquest on top.

The load is RP brass, 69 gr SMKs, CCI450s and W748.

I was rather impressed with this loads performance from the 20 inch barrel.

Why is there more than one hole? Did you have the shakes that day?

[JLA]

Had to keep it interesting.

[BlackEagle]

Had to be the wind.

[JLA]

No it was me. The rifle is solid. I almost always pull a shot or 2, especially when shooting 10 shot strings. 90% of the time im machine solid, but sometimes I wiggle or pause in my breathing. Thats my biggest thing that causes me to pull shots. Ill get a sweet lull in the wind and Ill try to rush the string to get them all fired before the wind picks back up and I end up rushing my breathing to get the shot off during the natural respiratory pause. Its one of my only shooting vices. But "If the brass isnt flyin, youre dyin"

[American Leader]

I think BlackEagle means "You must have broke wind"!

[JLA]

Prolly that too.