help identifying inherited rifle

[krig51]

i'm new here. looks like a great forum for info & help !

brother recently passed away & left me about a dozen old, collectible rifles.
not very savvy with old guns (yet), lol.
this one truly has me baffled (hope pics are ok).
all identifying markings shown.

any help greatly appreciated.
~kevin~

[StoneChimney]

It's a Werder Carbine.

[jack404]

yes it is , i have the pistol of this action , what a mechanical nighmare that is

dont pull apart unless you KNOW what your doing , theres a heap of parts pins and such all crammed in together there .. nice weapons just really need to be up on it to do any servicing

[krig51]

Originally Posted by StoneChimney

It's a Werder Carbine.

thank you SO very much, StoneChimney !!

and jack404 for the additional info !

now i can have a blast doing some research on it.

(not looking to service or fire it.... just wanted to ID & label it with the rest of collection)



~kevin~

[permafrost]

Is that thing complete? Can't figure out the ignition system.

[jack404]

its complete !!

here a pistol pic ( not mine )

[jack404]

oh and they are bringing about 1500 - 1700 euro's to continental collectors , dunno the value in the US. maybe $1500 -$2000 in decent condition ( bright bore decent wood and markings ) maybe less too ! i dunno US values

pic of the internal action



and this is the last one i can find any sale info about

http://www.hermann-historica.de/aukt...db=kat59_s.txt

[JohnRich]

That "1. Ch. 4." on the buttplate tang looks like a typical German style unit marking. Research that, and you can figure out to what military unit the rifle was assigned, and from that you get an idea of what kind of action it might have participated in. I think it would be the 1st Chevauleger Regiment (Light Horses), 4th Company. Google "Chevauleger Regiment" and you get all kinds of interesting info.

Very cool rifle!

[dustydog]

Hard to find brass for them,had to get some 45-90 and trim/swedge/trim/swedge/fireform/trim,but a blast to shoot,handy,points great,and a good brush round for whitetail.BP only!

[deadin]

Can't figure out the ignition system.

As I remember, push the front "trigger" forward and the block drops down (Ala Martini Henry) and ejects the case. Drop in a loaded round and pull the lever on top back, closing the breech block and cocking the striker. (or is there a hammer in there somewhere. I don't remember....).
It's actually a pretty fast action for a single shot.

[Jim K]

Deleted

[Jim K]

Part C is the hammer. It is held cocked by the trigger/sear J fitting into either a full or a half cock notch. When it is not cocked, the breechblock A is held upward by the lever B until the bottom part of B is pushed forward. Then the spring D acts to push the rear of the breechblock A up, pivoting the front end down to allow loading. This also trips the ejector E to eject a fired case if there is one.

When hammer C is cocked, cam F pushes the breechblock A upward, closing the gun and allowing part B to again support the breechblock. The trigger J can then be pulled, releasing the hammer to fire the cartridge by means of a conventional firing pin in the breechblock. The breechblock is supported against chamber pressure by its back end abutting on the frame at the rear. The safety is the half cock notch.

Rube Goldberg would have loved it. The only thing missing is the part that pinches the tail of the cat, causing it to jump up.....

The firing procedure starts with the hammer down, as when the gun has just been fired. The "backward trigger" is pressed forward to drop the breechblock, ejecting the fired case and allowing the chamber to be loaded. The hammer is then cocked, closing the breech, and the trigger pulled. Complicated it is, especially when compared with the much simpler Martini action, but it was quick and easy to use.

Jim

[permafrost]

Holy crap!
Does look like a Rube Goldberg invention!

[RJay]

Good Grief, I've been to a country fair, a church social, a goat rope and thought I had been to the mountain, but that one is new to me.

[jack404]

good brush guns . we converted a few to .303 when they were available in the 60's and 70's

action , better drawing

[krig51]

terrific to see more replies, great info, pics & tips to this thread !
now to just find some appropriate ammo, lol.
(honestly doubt i'll ever fire it, but it appears quite functional)

[jack404]

http://www.militaryrifles.com/Bavari...&Aptiertes.htm

the folks on this page sell some if asked ( i think they neck down some and remake with BP )

[Jim Hauff]

One of the pistols "passed thru my hands" a few years back. It wasn't an H&R so I didn't keep it. My research indicated that: the pistol's action was identical to the carbine/rifle, merely changed the stocks; they were issued in pairs to mounted troops as saddle holster guns; Germans/Bavarians/Austrians called them "Blitz pistole/Karabin" because of the rapidity of reloading (as opposed to muzzle stuffers I'd guess"; they were all the rage for a decade or two. I remember that this one was heavy for a single shot pistol and that the action (once cleaned up a bit) was very fluid and smooth. Here's a couple pics of the action:

[jarmann]

the werder locking system is always kept with open bolt when not in use ,to preserve tension of the omega spring
the carabines where all manufactures in liege/lutich(belgium ) by francotte about a 5000 where delivered after the french /german war in 1871
greetings from over the pond
jarmann

[jarmann]

I was wrong mentioning the amount of werder carabines ,it must be 4000 pieces and 4000 pistols that where orderd by the bavarian governement
mr ludwig werder was the director of MAN ( Maschienenbau Gesesellschaft Nurnberg ) a railroad material enginering cy ,later the famous dieselmotor builders
greetings from flanders
jarmann

[jack404]

and welcome to the Forum to you jarmann

G'day from Australia

[jarmann]

my werder is model 69 in 11,5x50 R
found it in very good condition just needed a general cleanup and omaga spring adjustment ,I think it was stored more than a hundred years with closed bold , hammer gave a to light blow on the primers ,ejection spring was broken but a new one was made cases are airborn now ,cases made from .43 spanish and 45/70 ,will fireform with vitha N110 and .446 mauser bullet ,use 2/3 gn of dacron as keeper
greetings from over the pond
jarmann

[Jim K]

I don't know about "blitz" (lightning), but they are pretty fast. Just push the front "trigger", drop a round in the breech, cock the hammer and fire. A shade faster than the Martini action and a lot faster than the American "trapdoor", but a lot more complex than either.

Jim