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150 grain Keith Type 38 Special need load data

6K views 22 replies 8 participants last post by  dbcooper 
#1 ·
I didn't really expect to find the Keith Type bullet in any of my 3 manuals but I don't show any 150 grain except for a wadcutter but I can't find a thing that is close to this weight and profile
I
this picture pretty much represents what they look like.

They came out a little softer than I wanted to, I mixed in some hospital lead to the batch as I recall and it must have been fairly soft. Some of these, and I only made 100, came out in the 9 and 10 range so I need to keep pressures >13000 and in the 750 fps range.

I have some SR 4756 and HP 38 handy but could also load up Unique if needed.
I loaded up 10 tonight using 3.5 gr of SR 4756 just to try and see if they cause leading but I'd like to know if anyone has any data on this bullet.

thanks in advance
 
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#2 ·
The first reloads I ever did was a Lee mold. 150 SWC, over 5.0 of Unique.

But if you can't find 150 data, use 158 lead SWC data. You'll be fine.

That 5 is the max load, in the original Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook. If you think it's too fast, 4.0 is the minimum.
 
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#3 ·
thanks Alpo
I'll load up a dozen with Unique using 4.0
on these first 100 that are a tad soft, I want to run them slower and see if they lead the bore.
The next batch of those ingots I pour, I'll add some WW to the mix and try to get the hardness up a notch or two.

I've only ever dropped my bullets from the mold onto a damp wet towel to prevent denting from landing onto the metal pan. do you think that dropping them right into cold water (safely) would help the hardness that much. Some mention that over at CB.com but I don't know, Ive never tried it.
 
#4 ·
Dropping the hot bullets into water will harden them up some, can't say how much, but I drop all mine into water. Another trick is to add some lead free solder to the mix. If you have a hardness gauge you will soon discover how much to add. My hardness tester is my thumb nail.
 
#6 ·
I've heard of dropping hot bullets into water, quenching them, surfaces hardens them.

I've also heard that when you size them, it works that surface hardness away.

Don't know. I've never done that.

I use straight wheel-weights, and drop them on a folded towel. Never had dented bullets and get very little leading. More importantly, I get good accuracy and good upset on targets.

I believe people have bought into the "hard cast is better" foolishness, put out by the commercial casters, since the harder they cast their bullets, the less deforming there will be in shipment. That's why they came up with "hard lube", which is nothing but candle wax. It does not melt in the back of the UPS truck, and smear all over the other bullets in the box, like Alox does. It cuts down on customer complaints.
 
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#7 ·
I've heard of dropping hot bullets into water, quenching them, surfaces hardens them.

I've also heard that when you size them, it works that surface hardness away.

Don't know. I've never done that.

I use straight wheel-weights, and drop them on a folded towel. Never had dented bullets and get very little leading. More importantly, I get good accuracy and good upset on targets.

I believe people have bought into the "hard cast is better" foolishness, put out by the commercial casters, since the harder they cast their bullets, the less deforming there will be in shipment. That's why they came up with "hard lube", which is nothing but candle wax. It does not melt in the back of the UPS truck, and smear all over the other bullets in the box, like Alox does. It cuts down on customer complaints.
Alpo you are probably 100% correct about the shift towards harder cast bullets.
Its just I got a lot of this hospital lead and the last time I made ingots I mixed it in with WW lead. The hospital lead must be pretty soft as it brought the hardness down to a 9-10 range which limits your chamber pressure according to Lee
I leaded up my new 686 months ago with some factory wadcutters that were supposedly graphite coated and ready to load. I admit, the muzzle velocity was on the mid to high side, but they shouldn't have leaded like that so I'm just being cautious with these first 100 Keith bullets I cast.

I'm going to shoot these out of my Security Six and see how they do.
 
#8 ·
I have been casting 150 grain Keith type bullets for 40 years. Always gathered wheel weights until they started using those little square non-lead ones. I still have a couple hundred pounds of ingots from wheel weights. I also bought some linotype ingots a while back.

I have not loaded any .38 Special in quite a while. Alpo is right about using 158 grain data. My load was 4.5 grains of Unique under that 150 grain Keith Type bullet. Haven't seen any Unique powder in a while, either!
 
#9 ·
Wish I could find 'em remodeling radiology, and tossing the wall shielding. You one lucky feller.
 
#11 · (Edited)
actually I bought this lead from a metal recycler here. The two local hospitals bring in lead shielding from MRI machines (I think that's what was told to me)
The lead is clean except some has some bright blue paint on it.
the recycler told me that with 2 major hospitals here this lead will be coming in at a pretty steady stream.
It comes in 1.25 OD hollow tubes and is cut into 16 inch lengths, then every now and then, there is a darn big ob-round ball with some copper tubes sticking out of it. That ball is about 20 percent smaller than a bowling ball but weighs about 50 pounds.

They refer to it as "hospital lead" and keep this in the back in plastic open top drums and I am allowed to pick out what I want and I think the last time I paid them about $24 for about 80 lbs

I looked at it and figured since it was so clean and I didn't have to run all over looking for wheel weights and spooning out the steel clips and looking out for zinc weights that I would give it a try.

the only thing is, it seems a little on the soft side so the next time I batch some, I will add some more WW lead and maybe some of that solder Carver mentioned.
 
#10 ·
DB, you're right, it's a tin solder, lead free. Pick it up at any hardware store. Most of us know who Elmer Keith was, and some of us might have met him. His favorite bullet was the Keith style WC, in 240 gr bullets, his own invention, and he like the lead hardness to be around 12 BH. These bullets were fired from a .44 magnum, at .44 magnum speeds, and pressures. I can not recall ever reading an article that said Elmer ever had leading problems. I'm sure he did, he was always pushing the envelope.
 
#12 ·
Getting up over 5.0 grains of Unique is near maximum with ANY of the cast .38 Special bullets. One thing you might want to consider is that the bullets you are loading are mostly target or practice anyway - so maybe you might not want to load all that much 'horsepower' into them. My .38 Special loads are mid-range (around about 850 FPS), and are easier to shoot, easier on my pistol and don't lead the barrel. I've always used Unique or Bullseye for most pistol cast bullet shooting.

The above statemnts about 'hard cast' bullets for handgun shooting are spot-on. You don't need very hard bullets for most hand gun velocities. Now for RIFLE cast bullets - that is a different breed of cat. Rifle velocites are generally up around the majic 1200 FPS range, so gas checks and a harder alloy is in order. Of course in some magnum pistol velocities you are playing with possible leading problems when you are near that 1200 FPS mark.
 
#13 ·
One of my local "pushers" sells both hard cast and a local product (these are all .452 for my .45's). The local product I can buy for about $60 per thousand, but the hard cast are a lot more expensive. About the only difference I can see is the price!
 
#15 ·
This is just me, but there is no way you can KNOW the velocity you need to keep those bullets until you have tried those bullets.
After over 40 years of casting I can state that, at least for me, the alloy is MUCH less important then the bullet size and lube used. I have spent the last 40 years shooting only as-cast bullets and lubes have changed over the years.
I bought bullet sizing dies that were 0.001" larger than my average as-cast diameter and lubed the bullets in my Lubri-Sizer. Then, for handgun bullets that could "stand" on their own, I started pan lubing. Then, I went to tumble lubing for the speed and quality of the lube.
During my last decade of casting, all I used was Lee Liquid Alox. Personally, I don't consider LLA to be a lubricant in the traditional meaning, rather it is a tenacious barrier-coat that works to eliminate bore-to-lead contact. It is amazing how little is required to do the job.
Used this for everything from .45 Auto at ~750fps to .30-30 at nearly 2000 fps (with gas checks). My alloy had always been wheel weights, with tin/lead solder added if the alloy didn't flow and fill the molds easily. Even decades of firing .44 Mag, I never needed a harder alloy.
If you are shooting undersized bullets, and I have no idea why any one would, then the bullet expanding to fill the bore is important and ONLY a soft alloy would do this. If the bullet is large enough to fill the bore and the lube is good enough, leading will be eliminated or minimized.
Thus, all I am saying is do not ASSUME that something will not work based on someone's theory.
 
#18 ·
Hard cast bullets, how hard are they?


Assuming that the gun part of the equation is in good shape, and the bullets are of correct size, the hardness of the bullet becomes the critical issue. Most bullet makers advertise really hard bullets as being the "cure" for leading. It sort of stands to reason, doesn't it? A harder lead won't smear as much as it goes down the barrel, and will leave less residue - right?

Guess what - it isn't true. In fact, it's completely off base! http://www.grantcunningham.com/blog_files/15e296c61415e831fecfe8fddcc1dc92-414.html
 
#19 ·
You have to know how hard the bullets are that you are buying some companies list the hardness, some don't!

Product Information

A great bullet for competitive shooting or small and medium-sized game, these high-quality cast bullets are composed of 6% antimony, 2% tin and 92% lead with a Brinell hardness of 15. They are rated to 1600 fps without gas checks. The bullet lube is designed for use with smokeless powder, but it will work with blackpowder firearms that have barrels less than 20" long. The alloy is lab text certified before casting. This is not loaded ammunition. http://www.midwayusa.com/product/20...rain-lead-semi-wadcutter?cm_vc=ProductFinding
 
#21 ·
Good info Carver. The formula he listed in the article must have been used by Lee that's where I was getting my maximum pressures from based on the hardness of my cast bullets

I shot those through my Security Six yesterday. After church I'll take it to the shop and use the bore light to see if they leaded any. I really liked that lighter load, they were fun to shoot. I think my wife would enjoy shooting those out of her 38
 
#22 ·
The wife loves to shoot my DEWC out of her .38, but hates anything factory loaded including the low recoil stuff.
 
#23 ·
well since I posted last time, I brought the gun back home and checked the bore for leading and it was clear. So today I took it back out with 50 more and let my wife shoot about half of them.
The loved the reduced recoil using my Security Six and said she actually enjoyed shooting more than usual so its a win all the way around
 
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