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19-year-old looking to own an AR-15 SBR?

4K views 36 replies 12 participants last post by  soundguy 
#1 · (Edited)
I live in Alaska, a state that permits NFA-regulated firearms. I understand that, because I am under 21, it is unlawful to purchase an SBR through an FFL licensee, or basically a dealer. In order to purchase any firearm or firearm parts online, they almost always must go through a dealer.

I understand that it is legal, however, to create and/or purchase an SBR from a non-FFL licensee. Basically, this means that I can create an SBR or purchase an SBR from an in-state resident.

I do not know of anybody from whom I can purchase a complete SBR. This leads me to the creative option. If I can, I will purchase the parts through a dealer. So now to my question:

Can I purchase a complete SBR upper receiver and complete lower receiver as two separate parts from a dealer? I have heard that the lower receiver must be registered as an SBR, but does that mean I can purchase this lower receiver and register it as an SBR from a dealer?

If I can't do that and am forced to find & purchase a lower receiver from a non-FFL licensee in-state resident, and then submit an ATF form 1 without going through a dealer, can I still purchase an SBR upper receiver through a dealer since the upper receiver is not in-and-of itself an SBR registered component? This possession of the upper receiver would be void of constructive intent because I would purchase the upper only after I have purchased and SBR-approved a lower receiver.

Very confusing, yes, but I am desperately looking for an answer! Thank you!
 
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#3 ·
I can see why his state might be important, although he says, in the first sentence, that NFA is legal there.

But his reason for wanting an SBR? Because he can have it, maybe? Why does it matter WHY he wants one? He wants one.
 
#4 · (Edited)
Come on Alpo.
I asked to help him out.......................................
I asked because I was wondering if he wanted one for a certain reason AE for shooting, For hunting and so on.
It is a ligit question whats the problem with me asking?
And his state IS a important question because it can help us to know so we can help him out some states will not let you have one UNLESS you are 21 or over...................
Mike
 
#5 ·
You might be better off with a "pistol" unless you can't own one until you're 21. With say an AAC Blackout pistol, you have the short barrel upper with a registered pistol lower, put on a SIG brace and you are good to go. No $200 tax stamp, no BS about taking the gun across state lines, no informing the ATF every time you want to move.
 
#6 ·
Alaska has a couple of laws about anyone under 21 years old and firearms possession/carry. I am not 100% sure, but I am pretty sure that you have to be 21 for the ATF to approve an application for any NFA weapon to include a SBR. You need to check the laws and NOT try to get around them.

If you get caught, you will be well over 21 when you get out of prison, and then you won't be allowed to have a gun of any kind!!
 
#8 ·
Don't try to get around it. Send in a Form 1. There's a block on it for age. If ATF don't want a 19-year-old to have an SBR, they'll reject it and send your 200 bucks back.

And Mike, I apparently read your question wrong. I've just seen - too many times - this response.

I want a machine gun. WHY DO YOU WANT A MACHINE GUN?
I want a AK with a 75-round drum. WHY DO YOU WANT A CLIP THAT BIG?
I want a sawed-off shotgun. WHY WOULD ANYONE WANT A SAWED-OFF SHOTGUN?

That's how your post read. I want a SBR. WHY DO YOU WANT A BARREL UNDER 16 INCHES? Because, of course, only mass murderers or lunatics want a rifle with a barrel under 16 inches.

So my knee-jerk reaction. WHY DO YOU WANT THAT? Because he wants it.

Sorry. I shoulda known better from you, but I think it was that "New York State" thing that got me. Most of the WHY WOULD YOU WANT THAT type questions come from people that live in places where THAT is not legal. Canada. England. California. New Jersey. And New York.
 
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#9 ·
All is cool Alpo.
I did not even think about what NY can have I was just trying to figure out why he wanted one so if he could not get it maybe he could get something else that would fit he needs.
I think maybe I should have been more specific on why I was asking.
Mike
 
#11 ·
"Federal law prohibits Federal firearms licensees from selling or delivering "... any firearm
or ammunition to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than eighteen years of age, and if the firearm is other than a shot
gun or rifle
, or ammunition for a shotgun or rifle
, to any individual who the licensee know
s or has reasonable cause to believe is less than twenty-one years of age
." [18 USC § 922(b)(1)]
Where State or local law is MORE restrictive than the Federal law, the State/local law shall apply.

And I know that leaves a slight gray area because and SBR is "Short Barreled Rifle" but we all know that when it says "Shotgun or rifle" it's the "ATF defines RIFLE as:..." kind of crap. Looks like no SBR...
 
#13 ·
I saw some Rossi guns on the web yesterday that were just plain odd; they're lever rifles with 12" barrels, but classed as pistols. What's up with that? How do they get away with calling them pistols, instead of SBRs? And if they can get away with it, why can't someone make one with an AR-style action, instead of lever operated?
 
#14 ·
Henry makes them too. They get around it by using the short stock so then it is no longer "Designed to be fired from the shoulder" same way Sig Sauer got around the arm-strap stock attachment for AR type pistols. The ATF letter on it said

"FTB has previously determined (see FTB #99146) that the firing of a weapon from a particular position, such as placing the receiver extention of an AR-15 type pistol on the user's shoulder, does not change the classification of a weapon. Further, certain firearm accessories such as the SIG stability brace have not been classified by the FTB as shoulder stocks and, therefore, using the brace improperly does not constitute a design change. Using an accessory improperly would not change the classification of a weapon under Federal law. However, the FTB cannot recommend using a weapon (or weapon accessory) in a manner not intended by the manufacturer."
 
#16 ·
#18 ·
He can in Alaska, the age requirement there is 18.
 
#21 ·
#20 ·
i'd have to see it as well. I thought the pistol age was us code?

the SBR i can almost see. as a rifle is legal at 18, and if the nfa doesn't have an objection, then a 'registered' rifle is what it is.. just happens to be short..

again.. i'd like to see that in us code or atf opinion at least.
 
#22 ·
#29 ·
This is federal law for handguns. If the state's law is stricter, you must also follow it on top of federal law.

Note: There are exceptions for a juvenile's possession and to give to a juvenile. The scope of this matter goes beyond Commerce to even private transfers. A separate paragraph details 21yo for transfers from "licensees"(FFL's).

A juvenile is a person under 18yo.

US Title 18, Chapter 44, Subsection 922:

(x)
(1) It shall be unlawful for a person to sell, deliver, or otherwise transfer to a person who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe is a juvenile-
(A) a handgun; or
(B) ammunition that is suitable for use only in a handgun.
(2) It shall be unlawful for any person who is a juvenile to knowingly possess-
(A) a handgun; or
(B) ammunition that is suitable for use only in a handgun.
(3) This subsection does not apply to-
(A) a temporary transfer of a handgun or ammunition to a juvenile or to the possession or use of a handgun or ammunition by a juvenile if the handgun and ammunition are possessed and used by the juvenile-
(i) in the course of employment, in the course of ranching or farming related to activities at the residence of the juvenile (or on property used for ranching or farming at which the juvenile, with the permission of the property owner or lessee, is performing activities related to the operation of the farm or ranch), target practice, hunting, or a course of instruction in the safe and lawful use of a handgun;
(ii) with the prior written consent of the juvenile's parent or guardian who is not prohibited by Federal, State, or local law from possessing a firearm, except-
(I) during transportation by the juvenile of an unloaded handgun in a locked container directly from the place of transfer to a place at which an activity described in clause (i) is to take place and transportation by the juvenile of that handgun, unloaded and in a locked container, directly from the place at which such an activity took place to the transferor; or
(II) with respect to ranching or farming activities as described in clause (i), a juvenile may possess and use a handgun or ammunition with the prior written approval of the juvenile's parent or legal guardian and at the direction of an adult who is not prohibited by Federal, State or local law from possessing a firearm;
(iii) the juvenile has the prior written consent in the juvenile's possession at all times when a handgun is in the possession of the juvenile; and
(iv) in accordance with State and local law;
(B) a juvenile who is a member of the Armed Forces of the United States or the National Guard who possesses or is armed with a handgun in the line of duty;
(C) a transfer by inheritance of title (but not possession) of a handgun or ammunition to a juvenile; or
(D) the possession of a handgun or ammunition by a juvenile taken in defense of the juvenile or other persons against an intruder into the residence of the juvenile or a residence in which the juvenile is an invited guest.
(4) A handgun or ammunition, the possession of which is transferred to a juvenile in circumstances in which the transferor is not in violation of this subsection shall not be subject to permanent confiscation by the Government if its possession by the juvenile subsequently becomes unlawful because of the conduct of the juvenile, but shall be returned to the lawful owner when such handgun or ammunition is no longer required by the Government for the purposes of investigation or prosecution.
(5) For purposes of this subsection, the term "juvenile" means a person who is less than 18 years of age.
(6)
(A) In a prosecution of a violation of this subsection, the court shall require the presence of a juvenile defendant's parent or legal guardian at all proceedings.
(B) The court may use the contempt power to enforce subparagraph (A).
(C) The court may excuse attendance of a parent or legal guardian of a juvenile defendant at a proceeding in a prosecution of a violation of this subsection for good cause shown.
For NFA - Title 26, Chapter 53 doesn't formally set a minimum age. But this is where the "age of majority" sets in. Persons under 18 have not earned full rights, thus are minors. Denial of rights to minors can be administrated under the "power to police". Since handgun possession for those under 18 is regulated, it is a very short leap that it also applies to NFA since one of the original goals of the NFA was to regulate concealable weaponry - which three of the defined NFA devices are regulated for. ...SBR's, SBS's, and AOW's. Part of the NFA's original intent was also to regulate all handguns, but they were worked off the bill before it was approved.

A licensee(FFL) can only transfer a rifle or a shotgun to a person under 21(but at least 18yo).
 
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#30 ·
You are definitely correct, Apparently you only need to be 21 to get it from a "dealer" or to obtain an FFL to "deal" in said items. If it is "Formed" it bypasses the dealer as well as the age requirement, and checking the "under 21" box on the form doesn't seem to immediately void the form either (like some of the other questions). My hat is off to knight0334 for being more thorough :) I definitely haven't found anything else (despite grueling digging) to contradict it.
 
#31 ·
http://www.sigsauer.com/Catalog/short-barrel-rifles.aspx[/QUOTE]

Just a word of warning for everyone regarding the AR pistols that are designed to be strapped to the wrist ;).

At one time I was wanting the Sig when they first came out. After talking with a US Marshall that I know he informed me what I knew, they're perfectly legal.

Plus, now here's the kicker, if your caught shouldering it, which can be done with the utmost of ease, that's why I wanted one. You'll be arrested.

His words, not mine. I asked on what basis? He said it is sold as a pistol, once you shoulder it you've taken the intended use from a pistol to a rifle and now that you've intended it being a rifle it's a SBR of which you have no stamp for :eek:.

Would it fly? Who knows would you want to test a Federal Charge?
 
#32 ·
http://www.sigsauer.com/Catalog/short-barrel-rifles.aspx

Just a word of warning for everyone regarding the AR pistols that are designed to be strapped to the wrist ;).

At one time I was wanting the Sig when they first came out. After talking with a US Marshall that I know he informed me what I knew, they're perfectly legal.

Plus, now here's the kicker, if your caught shouldering it, which can be done with the utmost of ease, that's why I wanted one. You'll be arrested.

His words, not mine. I asked on what basis? He said it is sold as a pistol, once you shoulder it you've taken the intended use from a pistol to a rifle and now that you've intended it being a rifle it's a SBR of which you have no stamp for :eek:.

Would it fly? Who knows would you want to test a Federal Charge?
Can't see how it would fly. ATF has already released an opinion that firing a pistol from the shoulder does not make it a rifle.... it makes it a pistol being used incorrectly.

ATF further stated that use ( incorrect use ) does not denote firearm type.

Every SIG ar pistol is shipped with a copy of that ATF ruling printed on cardstock in the package.
 
#34 ·
Thanks for posting that Soundguy. I was just relaying what was said to me by this guy. It looks as if he don't know what he's talking about, or don't care or both.
 
#35 ·
unfortunately common with many that are tasked with enforcing their will and law,

imho, Leo's should be held to a higher standard. Nobody is perfect, but if your job is the law.... You should know the law, and if you mis-enforce it, there should be penalties based on negligence or dereliction of duty. If those penalties were enforced, we might have fewer clueless people with a badge and god complex.
 
#37 ·
butstocks are for rifles and registered sbr, arm cuffs and rcvr extensions are for pistols. No need to hide the rest of the but stocks, I have rifle lowers and uppers, and pistol lowers and uppers. Quite simple, you don't put a pistol upper on a rifle lower, and it might be an awkward situation if you had pistol uppers and no pistol lowers, but did have rifle lowers ...
 
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