.308 Win and 7.62 NATO

Discussion in 'The Ammo & Reloading Forum' started by Guest, Feb 24, 2003.

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    skratch
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    (3/6/02 10:03:44 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del All .308 Win and 7.62 NATO
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    I've been trying to find the specs on these cases, I have the info on the .308 Win. but no luck on the 7.62. Are they in act the same? I've heard the OAL and sholder angle is different. Thanks for any help,,,,,

    kdub01
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    (3/6/02 11:56:11 pm)
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    They are the samo, samo - exactamundo!!

    Same as calling a 5.56mmx45mm Nato, a .223 Remington. Both the same cartridge.

    skratch
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    (3/7/02 12:15:29 am)
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    kdub, mucho gracias!

    SW Man
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    (3/7/02 7:42:35 pm)
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    Only known difference between the two is that a military 7.62 case is a little thicker and heavier than a commercial 308 case.
    The second admendment GUARANTEES the Constitution and the other nine.

    zanjero
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    (3/19/02 12:50:41 am)
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    The Opera ain't over, till the Fat Barrel sings! :)

    Moskovskyya
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    (3/19/02 2:06:17 pm)
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    I personally DO NOT fire .308 in 7.62 NATO chambered weapons, or vise versa because the two rounds ARE NOT THE SAME!

    Here are the differences:

    .308 Winchester chamber headspace gauges:
    GO: 1.630"
    NOGO: 1.634"
    FIELD REJECT: 1.638"

    US Army 7.62x51 chamber headspace gauges:
    GO: 1.635"
    FIELD REJECT: 1.6455"

    SAAMI .308 Winchester chamber pressures:
    MAP: 62,000 psi
    MPSM: 66,000 psi
    Minimum Proof Pressure: 83,000 psi
    Maximum Proof Pressure: 89,000 psi

    US Army 7.62x51 chamber pressures:
    Maximum: 50,000 psi
    Proof pressure: 67,500 psi

    7.62x51 NATO pressure data from: TM 43-001-27 "Army Ammunition Data Sheets Small Caliber Ammunition" and headspace data from Kuhnhausen's M1/M1A shop manual

    .308 Winchester data from ANSI/SAAMI document Z299.4-1992, "Pressure and Velocity, Centerfire Rifle Sporting Ammunition"

    The Remington Arms Company specifically advises that military 7.62x51 NATO ammunition *not* be fired in any of their rifles chambered for the .308 Winchester, due to the more lax manufacturing specifications used on the NATO.

    Also, I know that both of the bullets have the same diameter and will actually fit in the other's chamber. That's what necessitated the warming from Remington.

    If you look at the pressure data you can easily see that the .308 is a much more powerful cartridge, on the order of 20+%. Would you overload any of the other calibers you fire by that much and hold close to your face to discharge, not me... especially in a 50+ year old battle rifle that was built probably fairly quickly for war, without shooter safety being the main concern.





    ruffitt
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    (3/24/02 3:34:49 am)
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    Re: .308 Win and 7.62 NATO
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    Moskovskyya

    Glad to see the figures you posted on the 7.62x51 vs .308 cal. I had read them somewhere else, but I forget where. These figures give rise to a question pertaining to a specific rifle that I have.

    The specific rifle I am referring to is my Spanish FR-8. This rifle is based on the Mauser 98 short action, and is stamped on the receiver as "308 caliber".

    I am assuming (yeah, I know what that means), based on the stamping on the receiver, that the FR-8 is capable of handling and (safely) shooting commercial .308 ammunition.

    The question I have is, - is my assumption correct or incorrect?

    Regards


    RuffItt




    Moskovskyya
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    (3/24/02 10:43:44 am)
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    Mr. ruffit you are correct in your caution of questioning the safety of a firearm that "SOMEONE" marked .308. It seems to me that most people think that, "if it it'll chamber fire it", which couldn't be anything near correct.

    The FR-8 (one of which I own and fire regularly) is actually neither .308 win or 7.62 x 51 NATO. The first 2 have been discussed while the Spanish 7.62 CETME has not. This is also a very different cartridge in respect to pressure and performance.

    I don't have te data on the CETME here right now, I'll post it later. However the Spanish 308 as some call it is roughly 115 gn projectile, producing about 40K PSI. It is in fact lower powered than the NATO, but dimentionally very close to 308 and NATO.

    I load the CETME's myself and have had many hours of fun safe shooting with the FR-8.

    As an "own up to it" type of thing, I fired comercial 308 and Nato 762x51 in all kinds of rifles for years without any known problems, before I knew there was a difference. There are also surely thousands of folks who will do it today without any problem, some know better and some don't.

    I have basically decided that common sense is the best policy. Any time you put a 40,50, 60K psi thing up to your face and eyes you are taking some risk of an accident, but why push the odds. I have a lot of time and money invested in my firearms, and enjoy them very much. I decded a long time ago to fire the cartridge the weapon was designed for, use safety equipment, keep the weapons clean and in good mechanical order. I personally think this kind of thinking will improve the collecting / shooting experience, as well as prreserve these historical weapons.



    ruffitt
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    (3/24/02 1:58:09 pm)
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    Re: .308 Win and 7.62 NATO
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    Thanx for the info Moskovskyya, I apapreciate it.

    Right now I don't know if I want to keep the FR-8 I have. If I can't SAFELY shoot .308 ammo through it, it is of no real use to me.

    I basically bought the gun as a foul weather/heavy brush deer hunting rifle, but I'll be darned if I want to hunt whitetails with Ball ammo

    RuffItt




    Tac401
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    (3/24/02 2:58:34 pm)
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    Re: .308 Win and 7.62 NATO
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    What about "06" commercial hunting ammo in
    a Garand, P-17 or 03/03-A3, same caliber
    and ok to shoot or different as in the case
    of the 308?

    Good info Mosk, I had also heard the same
    but never had a confirm on it.
    TFF VMBB Email Tac

    warpig883
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    (3/24/02 4:26:53 pm)
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    Amost all of the ammo that I have shot through my Garand (1000+ rds) has been commercial hunting loads.

    The only ammo I have shot through my M1A has been (100 rds) commercial hunting rounds.

    I did not know there was a differance.

    Tac401
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    (3/25/02 10:22:55 pm)
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    Now what about the 5.56 VS .223, are you saying THEY
    aren't equal either?
    TFF VMBB Email Tac

    the real fredneck
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    (3/26/02 8:28:18 am)
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    regarding the FR-8 it's built on a 98 action and should be strong enough to handle 308 (mine has anyway) from the reading I did seems the 7.62 CETME was more of a transition round which was originally designed for the CETME (remember the CETME was in service before the H&K G3 which many claim it "copied") for whatever reasons a light bullet round was developed (perhaps the Spanish are recoil sensitive) and it had to work in the FR-7's (small ring conversion) FR-8 and CETME

    Moskovskyya
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    (3/26/02 4:00:47 pm)
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    I don't want to get too long here, but there are several questions that have been asked, and with respect to all opinions, there are data that differ with some.

    1.
    The FR-8 is not "made up from a Mauser 98"! It was built on the 98 design, but not by Germany with good steels and heat treatment methods. They purchased the 98 design, built them in Spain with questionable steel and heat treatment methods, and called it a modelo 1943 (M43). Your FR-8 is a modified M43. Your particular rifle may be fine, or it may not, there's just no way to really tell as far as I know. I have tons of data on these that I am currently complieling for a full report.

    2.
    Read this concerning the 5.56 vs .223

    From:
    SAAMI SPORTING ARMS AND AMMUNITION
    MANUFACTURERS' INSTITUTE, INC.
    Technical Office P.O. Box 338
    Branford, CT 06405-0338

    "With the appearance of full metal jacket military 5.56 ammunition on the commercial Market, it has come to the attention of the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute (SAAMI) that the use of military 5.56 mm ammunition in sporting rifles chambered for Cal. 223 Remington cartridges can lead to higher-than-normal chamber pressures and possible hazards for the firearm, its user and bystanders. Tests have confirmed that chamber pressures in a sporting rifle may be significantly higher in the same gun when using military 5.56nm ammunition rather than commercially loaded Cal. 223 Remington cartridges. Chambers for military rifles have a different throat configuration than chambers for sporting firearms which, together with the full metal jacket of the military projectile, may account for the higher pressures which result when military ammunition is fired in a sporting chamber. SAAMI recommends that a firearm be fired only with the cartridge for which it is specifically chambered by the manufacturer".

    3
    From all I have found so far, it appears that .30 Springfield ball vs 30-06 does not seem to be very much of a problem. SAAMI, as well as the US small arms specs differ little from one to the other. Other than the general advice to fire the ammo the weapon was designed for.




    the real fredneck
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    (3/26/02 4:45:03 pm)
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    what could be the difference between .224 bullets causing pressure rise? FMJ vs SP or HP they all have jackets the points never contact the rifling I'm not one to argue w/SAAMI that MIL ammo may have higher pressures but have difficulty believing it's caused by FMJ bullets

    Tac401
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    (3/26/02 7:20:37 pm)
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    Re: .308 Win and 7.62 NATO
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    Mosk,

    So since it is not good to fire 5.56 in a sporting
    rifle due to higher pressures, does this mean that
    the opposite would be ok i.e. ok to fire .223 in
    a AR-15?

    What I don't understand is they say not to fire
    .308 in a 7.62 military rifle but they then say
    it in reverse for the 5.56 i.e. don't fire 5.56
    in .223 sporting rifle.

    Appreciate the responses!
    TFF VMBB Email Tac

    Moskovskyya
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    (3/26/02 8:16:35 pm)
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    Yes gentlemen its very confusing, its like anything else really, one has to make his own determinations with available data weighed.

    With all that I have studied, the differences in pressure of the .308 / 7.62, combined with the conversions to surplus firearms seems to have the largest window for catastrophic failure. Odds are, as you already believe, its unlikely.

    SAAMI, (as respected as they are), are after all "Sporting Arms and Ammo Manufacturers" etc, are their opinions biased innocently toward comercial ammo, probably!

    Sierra, Hornady, Speer, etc, they sell projectiles, "not Cheap" compared to mill surp, they'd have us reload everything and never fire mil surp at all, they all say commercial is safer, and why would they not.

    Importers and surplus ammo dealers will say that the mil surp is the best bet, they believe that! They say the corrosiveness is the most serious problem, because surplus ammo is part of their living.

    Remmington, Winchester, and Ruger, to name a few, have all released statements to some varying degree, that the warranty is void on their weapons if mil surp, or even hand loads are used. Due to their business / liability, what else could they say?

    Generally speaking, with all that said, I have decided to fire the correct ammo for all my firearms. I am into reloading heavily, I can reload commercial specs, mil specs, CETME, what ever I need. Then by the same token, what other opinion would I have?

    Basically, I believe that most catastrophic firearm failure is caused by some other problem in conjunction with an ammo problem. A shooter should address EACH thing that might at some point be a problem to prevent these combinations.

    Dozvedaniya



    LIKTOSHOOT
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    (3/27/02 5:14:29 pm)
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    I`ll agree to disagree on this one, there is some truth here, but jaded. LTS
    T.F.F.

    Tac401
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    (3/27/02 6:44:17 pm)
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    LTS,

    Please explain, I would really like the full scope of
    everyones info/opinion, this is a great topic!
    TFF VMBB Email Tac

    LIKTOSHOOT
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    (3/27/02 7:50:20 pm)
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    Well, since you asked (THUD) Here`s my take on this. Granted, the values given above are correct, but there is more to it that valued numbers. How many fifty year old rifles fire the .308 or .223? Not any in .223 and just a handfull in .308 (re-arseneled(sp)) Mexican Mausers, Isreal Mausers, can`t think of the other and a few SMLE`s British. These were reworked for the "Military" 7.62x51 NATO. This is where I find fault. Military rounds, even of the same caliber...NATO vs Civillian....are the same caliber. Though military chambers may be a little looser, the brass will fireform in the chamber. With that said, "all" military rounds are loaded to lower pressures, roughly 20%. Case in point....HK91, use ammo in the 2450-2750fps range with standard bullet weights(can`t remember grain weight). This is well below a store bought brand or reload (fps) No fifty year old plus should be fired using this ammo unless you know the rifle (steel) people are clearly warned to use reduced loads and this has nothing to do with case size. If used in a solid bolt action, it to will fireform the brass. Most 7.62x51 military rounds are reduced in fps, because of application.....they must fire in several types of firearms (military) I find this is only to protect makers of firearms and ammo from liabilities and nothing more. Run a caliper over a NATO .308, the a regular shelf .308. There ain`t that kind of difference......unless you`re stuffin it in a match grade chamber and even then some won`t fit. I used to have fits with Norma brass from the 70`s being very soft. It fit my rifles chamber perfect, but when fired, it would expand and freeze in the chamber, but no other maker would do the same. Most .308 NATO rifles are semi`s, so reduced loads are used to prevent premature parts failure.....nothing more. Bottom line is if you have a modern rifle, it will shoot either. I may have missed the point, don`t get down here that often. Let me know ifin I screwed up......kinda reminds me of the 9mm subgun ammo.....that YOU know better than to use in a pistol, but thats another story. Regards LTS

    round off those milimeters and you get what you want.
    T.F.F.

    Tac401
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    (3/27/02 8:27:45 pm)
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    Ah yes, the 9mm Subgun High Pressure ammo, well
    they are loaded to extreme high pressures, at least
    the ones I have & sold, they were made strictly for
    use in Submachine guns by English Govt. There are
    folks however who have shot them out of handguns
    but judging from my experience when I shoot them
    out of my subgun, I certainly wouldn't shoot them
    out of my handgun.
    TFF VMBB Email Tac

    Moskovskyya
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    (3/28/02 3:16:48 am)
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    LTS, it sounds like we have about the same opinions here i.e.

    There is basically no dimentional difference between .308 commercial and 7.62 x 51. The difference is the .308 is hotter.

    Any modern firearm chambered for .308 should safely fire 7.62 X 51... Other than the manufacturers of said firearms not recommending to do so, as we both said, probably for liability reasons, and knowledge that the mil surp ammo was manufactured by the low bidder, perhaps with questionable quality.

    In my view, the main point being discussed here is whether its a safe practice to fire modern .308 commercial in 50+ year old mil surp rifles, with largely unkown steel qualities, that "someone" has converted to a dimention that will chamber and fire either one.



    LIKTOSHOOT
    *TFF Senior Staff*
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    (3/28/02 8:23:03 am)
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    Your right, I was just lost in a fog. I would hope people would understand not to, unless they know the rifle. But ones that were rebuilt (military) should be able to handle milsurp 7.62x51. Not store grade .308 though. LTS
    T.F.F.

    Tac401
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    (3/28/02 11:18:22 am)
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    So is it ok to use .308 in a current Springfield M1-A
    rifle?

    Wutz you say hu?
    TFF VMBB Email Tac

    Moskovskyya
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    (3/28/02 1:04:38 pm)
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    I would say no. I have although fired 308 in mine in the past. There is more noticable recoil, and a more violent ejection with the 308 as opposed to the NATO. This is actually what got me started looking into the differences some time ago, along with bending the oprod on my Garand firing commercial 30-06. With the Garand, I now load a cartridge that's easy on the old girl, and accurate / still fun to shoot. My M1A is a 5 digit sn Springfield Armory NM, and the reciever "I believe" will handle the additional pressure of the .308, but I find the same thing true here as with the Garand, my hand load is easier on the rifle, the ejection is smoother, I don't tear the rims off my brass any more, and I have a much more accurate rifle.

    So, to explain the "no" in the first sentence, I don't do it because I have a much better system without the commercial, not really so much a safety issue in this particular case.



    Tac401
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    (3/28/02 1:37:54 pm)
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    Now this thread is getting more interesting!

    So if commercial ammo shouldn't be used in any
    military type weapon, then what of the .45acp
    1911-A1 series of pistols and commercial hollow
    points, do they fall in line with this theory too?
    And what of the bolt action military arms such
    as the 03-A3 and the P-17 U.S. Enfield?
    TFF VMBB Email Tac

    Moskovskyya
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    (3/28/02 1:44:46 pm)
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    I'm not making reply to my own post, but Tac401's post on 3-26-02 7:20 has made me curious about the 223 vs 5.56. I have checked Bushmaster Tech support for answers. I have an XM15-E2S and was curious what Bushmaster had to say.


    Quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    CAUTION: USE ONLY CLEAN, DRY, HIGH QUALITY COMMERCIALLY MANUFACTURED AMMUNITION IN GOOD CONDITION which is appropriate to the .223 Rem. caliber of your firearm. We do not recommend the use of remanufactured or hand loaded ammunition because it may damage your rifle. Use of improper ammunition will invalidate your warranty.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    Also they list performance specifications as follows...


    Quote:
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    data from 3 test barrels, temp... humidity etc..
    Win 55gn = 3259 FPS Mil 62gn = 3095 FPS
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    From the looks of this Bushmaster fires both types of ammo in their quality / testing control, but as we have already discussed, these are modern barrels and recievers.

    I have sent an email for a complete written opinion.

    Reply: 14:20 03-28-02, here is all the written opinion they have, or I quess that we need.

    Quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Yes, you can fire both .223 and 5.56mm in your rifle.

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Bushmaster Administrator
    Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2002 2:01 PM
    To: Jack xxxxxxxx
    Subject: XM15-E2S

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    ________________________________________________

    I just got off the phone with Colt, they don't have email, their tech specialist also says Colt AR's are tested with both .223 and 7.62 NATO, as as long as the ammo is in good condition, they are both safe.

    1-800-962- COLT (265






    Edited by: Moskovskyya at: 3/28/02 2:26:14 pm

    LIKTOSHOOT
    *TFF Senior Staff*
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    (3/28/02 2:42:43 pm)
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    Tac, you can safely fire .308 commercial ammo in your M-1a, BUT!.....you must add an adjustable gas system, some also change spring weights. If not, it will pound the parts and cause premature wear....as I stated back a few post. LTS
    T.F.F.

    Xracer
    *TFF Senior Staff*
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    (3/28/02 5:35:58 pm)
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    As to the 1911. If you have a stock GI one, it has the correct recoil spring for GI Ball ammo. For hotter loads, go to a stronger spring.

    A commercial '11 should handle most factory loads. For +P or hot handloads, it would be better to go to a stronger recoil spring. For light plinking/target loads, use a lighter spring.

    kdub01
    *TFF Senior Staff*
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    (3/28/02 6:14:04 pm)
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    And, this takes us back to the top -

    The question: Is .308 Winchester and 7.62 Nato the same cartridge?

    Answer: YES - it is!!!

    Tac401
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    (3/28/02 10:45:43 pm)
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    Great thread, thanks to all who have and are
    contributing to it, a good group effort indeed!

    Now, let's keep it going a little further if you
    all would.

    Ok, straight military issue 1911-A1 U.S. Property,
    let's say Ithaca for example, ok to use non-+P
    230gr. hollow point commercial ammo such as
    Rem Golden Sabre or similar non +P ammo?
    TFF VMBB Email Tac

    LIKTOSHOOT
    *TFF Senior Staff*
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    (3/28/02 11:09:14 pm)
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    I would up the spring weight up a few lbs. The .45acp really doesn`t fit into this thread. Basic GI grade ball ammo was mid to high 800`s, Golden Sabers launch in the upper 900`s. I doubt 100 or so fps are going to really do much harm. Ironsides is one tough cookie. LTS
    T.F.F.

    kdub01
    *TFF Senior Staff*
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    (3/29/02 12:58:43 am)
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    How 'bout installing one of them teflon/nylon buffers, LTS?

    LIKTOSHOOT
    *TFF Senior Staff*
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    (3/29/02 7:03:58 am)
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    I`m not much on buffers in a 1911, I would much rather have the correct spring rate OR just a tad over. A well tuned 1911 should not need a buffer, even if it`s a milspec. The right spring weight, trust me, you`ll know when you achieve it....smooth recoil. LTS
    T.F.F.

    Bob In St Louis
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    (3/29/02 2:14:20 pm)
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    As in all military ammo, there are different purpose loadings of the same caliber. Not long ago I came across some 9mm Largo ammo that was specifically manufactured for the 9mm Largo Destroyer carbines - hotter loads than the pistol 9mm Largo. The pistol ammo will have "pistola" on the box, the carbine ammo has "carabinero" or something like that - I don't have the box here in front of me.

    But, if this is not relevant to the discussion of .308 vs 7.62 NATO -----

























































    Excuse the heck outta me!
    Crusty Cruffler of Fine Spanish Pistols - Eibar Rules!

    LIKTOSHOOT
    *TFF Senior Staff*
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    (3/29/02 2:34:09 pm)
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    T.F.F.

    Moskovskyya
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    (3/29/02 2:54:17 pm)
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    kdub01, you said in the second post of this thread "exactamundo" or something to that effect, when comparing 7.62 NATO and .308. I appears that all the data listed above, as well as the M1A guys talking about gas system re-regulation to fire the commercial 308 has not convinced you.

    You must be talking solely on the basis of external, physical,
    dimentions, not power thereof and/or posibility of catastrophic failures.

    Actually, care must be taken when we older more experienced gentlemen and ladies, post in wide general terms, owing the finer details to past knowledge and the vast experience we ourselves possess. Some of the younger members, without said experience, will accept anything we say as literal truth. Its much better in my view to err on the side of caution, for no other reason than their safety.

    As I have indicated, I would, with certain weapons, with ammo that I've loaded, using proper safety equipment, by standers etc considered, fire commercial powered ammo in Milsurp rifles, but again I wouldn't do it as a general, non considered rule, nor especially recommend it to someone else!

    I'm sorry I can't be of any help on the hand gun ammo discussion just above. I am woefully inadequate on the subject of handguns period, I haven't gathered anything but hear say info on the handgun cartridges. I am reading however in an attempt to learn something, thanks, this is a really good thread!



    warpig883
    *TFF Staff*
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    (3/29/02 8:46:34 pm)
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    I am woefully inadequate on the topic of reloading for rifles and even more so on the science of what .308 I can shoot in my M1A or what .30-06 I can shoot in my Garand.



    I guess I better start reloading.








    I wonder if I can make the wife think the new reloading stuff is for my shotgun reloading room????????????????

    Moskovskyya
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 129
    (3/29/02 9:23:23 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del Re: .308 Win and 7.62 NATO
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    Warpig said...

    Quote:
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    I wonder if I can make the wife think the new reloading stuff is for my shotgun reloading room????????????????
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    Hey remember rule #14, at some point when you have amassed a considerable pile of stuff, new stuff is explained to the wife like... "oh honey you remember that old thing, I got it way back when they were really cheap"...



    warpig883
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 2945
    (3/30/02 3:19:09 am)
    Reply | Edit | Del Re: .308 Win and 7.62 NATO
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    She is a pro and is on to that triick long ago................................................. May be I need a girlfriend to fool

    Bob In St Louis
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 2089
    (3/30/02 2:46:36 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del Re: .308 Win and 7.62 NATO
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    The wife doesn't question my hobby at all now - after I was unemployed for 3 and a half months, and my "hobby" paid the bills!
    Crusty Cruffler of Fine Spanish Pistols - Eibar Rules!
  2. jim brady

    jim brady Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2009
    Messages:
    1,562
    This is a great discussion. The differences in military ball ammunition for use in the 7.62 Nato and the .30M1 and .30M2 for the Garand rifles. With the gas operated M1 Garand and the M1A/M-14 family of rifles, there is a major difference in useable powders between these and sporting rifles. The Garand in particular is designed for specific powders.

    The gas system in the Garand limits useable powders because of the 'gas-port pressure curve". Author John C. Clark has explained this very well. While there are powders that can deliver outstanding accuracy in the .30-06, some are not acceptable for use with the Garand's gas system.

    For years, the Government's arsenals used IMR-4895 and WC-852 powder for loading .30M1 (173 grain FMJ) and .30M2 (150 grain FMJ). The pressure curve delivered is acceptable for the Garand's gas system. Faster or slower burning propellants may cause damage to the operating rod.

    In my bolt action rifles, I found that my most accurate hunting loads used IMR-4350. This powder is not useable in the Garand. Most commercial hunting ammunition is not designed with the operating pressures of the Garand or the M1A in mind.
  3. fightlivefree

    fightlivefree Former Guest

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2009
    Messages:
    24
    I have a question someone may be able to answer. I have a case of 7.62 X 51 German military supplus ammo. It was produced in 1951. I shot a few and all the case got stuck in the chamber.

    Is there a safe way to extract the bullets without a bullet puller and is it worth the effort? Are the bullets worth anything so I can at least sell them? I have 500 to a case.
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