44 caliber rimfire black power single shot

Discussion in 'Black Powder Shooting / Muzzleloaders / Handguns' started by Guest, Feb 23, 2003.

  1. Guest

    Guest Guest

    charles
    Registered User
    Posts: 1
    (7/3/01 10:18:18 am)
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    I have a military black powder rifle, the bore measures 0.44, it has a rolling breach(?) and appears to be a rimfire cartridge from the was impression I took. Any help in identifing it will be appreciated!

    thanx

    chuckv

    How do I post photgraphs of this rifle to aid identification?

    thanx

    chuckv

    Edited by: charles at: 7/5/01 4:02:06 pm

    shooter45 us
    *Senior Chief Moderator*
    Posts: 585
    (7/3/01 10:29:54 am)
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    Welcome to he board Chuck. Someone should be along to help you soon.

    Edited by: shooter45 us at: 7/3/01 1:37:46 pm

    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 1049
    (7/3/01 1:44:01 pm)
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    I tried to reply, but for some reason it wouldn't let me, without hitting "reply" under your name, Hmmm...

    Give us more details, like markings, dimensions, action type etc.

    There were TONS of different cartridge carbines used by just the Union, but not many for the .44 Rimfire Henry, if that is what it is.

    Post this also, if you haven't already, on ask the experts, and curio and relics....

    Thanks, and welcome.

    Alphamale
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 419
    (7/3/01 2:54:10 pm)
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    Welcome to the board Charles
    "Children today are tyrants. They contradict their parents, gobble their food, and tyranize their teachers."--Socrates (470-399 B.C.)

    Xracer
    Moderator
    Posts: 522
    (7/3/01 3:41:52 pm)
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    Welcome Charles!

    Tac401
    Administrator
    Posts: 1449
    (7/3/01 4:20:42 pm)
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    ezSupporter
    Re: 44 caliber rimfire black power single shot
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    Welcome Aboard charles!

    Tac

    Edited by: Tac401 at: 8/5/01 3:06:50 pm

    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 1068
    (7/5/01 9:58:56 pm)
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    It's probably an Austrian Werndl Model 1867/77 (Model 1867 chambered for the M77 round...) in 11.15mmRF. (Maybe 11.4 mmRF...)

    Thank you for the applause, I AM that good! Do you believe it? Crap, I didn't think so...

    Now the REAL story. And in the process, learn how to become an "expert," too It's REALLY easy!

    When Chuck first posted this request, he didn't give alot of info, and it bothered me all day. I was at the library on Tuesday anyway, and decided to look for an old reference book I knew they had called "Identifying Old US Muskets, Rifles, and Carbines," by Colonel Arcadi Gluckman. (My first mistake, I ASSUMED U.S.!) (But, your first lesson, NEVER underestimate what you may find for free at your local library, and I don't care WHAT my son says, these things will NEVER replace books!)

    There were a few rifles and carbines chambered for the .44 Henry RF in the book, so I assumed it was that round. (Mistake #2.)

    Chuck then personally e-mailed me pictures of the gun, but they wouldn't load in my PC. I then requested a description with measurements, and ALL markings.

    This is where a REAL expert may have got it. I'm pretty good at US stuff, but NONE of the markings rang a bell, and the only name was "Werndl." (A Steyr Collector would have NAILED it right now.) I was still without a clue.

    In the book at the back was a listing of every patent issued in the US for a breechloader, and lo and behold, "J. Werndl" was issued one in 1868. I thought I was onto something, a cartridge conversion. (Mistake #3, but getting warmer...)

    The only thing I had was that "Werndl." Time for Google!
    One of the "Free" services provided by your friendly TFF Administration and Staff is the "Google Search" feature at the bottom of the page. (It should also be in your "favorites," IMHO)

    Typed in "J. Werndl" and got 300+ hits! Most in German.

    Found out "Jozef Werndl" was co-founder of a company that became Steyr.

    Found a company that I had never heard of (It's now in my "favorites," also) that specializes in dies for reloading wierd or old cartridges, had a listing for the "11.4 Werndl" and the "M77 11.15 Werndl."

    Found a long-winded (even compared to ME!!!) British officer's report from when he served in the Balkans in WWI with the Italians, who refers to the "ridiculous Werndl Rifles" carried by the Austrian Landssturm. (They MUST have been old by then, the Austrians envied the Italian CARCANOS!)

    And then found an old archived e-mail from 1997 from a Steyr Collector in Georgia, who lists out all the various Werndl Single Shot rifles, and there it is, all the markings explained down to the date codes, sight markings, and eagle! BINGO!!! X-ring!!!

    And I am now on my way to being an expert on "Werndls."

    And I probably got more out of it than Chuck! I enjoyed the heck out of it!

    The downside is now I found ANOTHER darn rifle I'm going to have to have in my collection someday, as if I needed another...

    Now, the reason I'm posting this is to show you the process. Yes, I have no doubt somebody on this forum, maybe AntiqueDoc, Bobin StL, Obelix2, to name a few, MAY have already known this stuff. We do have some GREAT knowledgeable experts here that continually amaze me.

    BUT, THIS is the process THEY used to become experts! Nobody was BORN with, say, an Eibar in their hand! (Well, maybe Bob WAS, wrong choice...)

    You can do it too, and it's not that hard! Just know the process, and have an inquiring mind. You'll learn ALL KINDS of neat stuff!!

    My interest is Military arms, I'll be happy to personally help anybody with their historical weapons questions.

    It was fun. Thanks Chuck!



    Edited by: polishshooter at: 7/5/01 11:40:29 pm

    AntiqueDr
    Moderator
    Posts: 400
    (7/5/01 10:02:15 pm)
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    Bravo, Polish!

    By the way, I am negotiating to purchase an original 97 Trench Gun. I may need your expertise in patina-izing...


    We Buy Guns! 1 - 100, Antique or Modern!
    www.apaxenterprises.com

    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 1073
    (7/5/01 10:47:49 pm)
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    First, inherit a "Well used, but used Well" gun from a Grandpa type who believed in "Function" over "Form," and who had bought it used in 1920.

    (Mechanically perfect, little or no finish.)

    Then, hunt deer in the rain/snow for a season...

    And use WD-40 as your long term protectant, and don't check the gun for about a month...

    The good news is it rubbed off pretty well, and switching to a good oil stopped it in it's tracks, BUT...the 10% finish that was on it when it was "my turn" is now about 5%...



    kdubaz
    Moderator
    Posts: 146
    (7/5/01 11:18:22 pm)
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    That was a wonderful investigative report, PS -

    You are to be commended for your diligent search! Next time I find an oldie but goodie, you'll be the 1st to know.
    Keep below the ridgeline!

    Xracer
    Moderator
    Posts: 534
    (7/6/01 7:22:37 am)
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    Nicely done, Polish.

    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 1074
    (7/6/01 8:59:19 am)
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    And one thing I forgot to add, was that even getting sidetracked in the investigation is fun, not like doing a real one.

    I now know even more about US Military Muskets, Rifles and Carbines, and post-war cartridge conversion systems than I ever knew before, and I thought I was already pretty good at that stuff.

    "The more you know, the less you know."

    And I found some neat stuff on WWI to go back and look at, all while researching a "furren" rifle made in like 1868!

    You just never know what you will find, kinda' like Alice in Wonderland...

    If you don't learn at least ONE new thing every day you just ain't trying...
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