.45-70 Guide Gun Heavy Loads

Discussion in 'The Ammo & Reloading Forum' started by Guest, Feb 24, 2003.

  1. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Extremities
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    (3/16/02 9:46:24 pm)
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    I'm extremely new to the forums, but it looks like a knowledgable place to ask a question. I'm currently looking for an "extreme-duty" load for the 45-70 to be used in Marlin's 1895 rifle. I have sold many of the 1895s for bear defence and our customers are constantly looking for the ultimate round to have ready to make use of it's potential. I have talked to one of the local firearms instructors several times about this, wondering if Speer's 500 Grain African Grand Slam bullet would be the answer, or if cost would come into play. He polled his contacts and came back with "a money is no object" budget. They want me to load the strongest, heaviest bullet I can find, and will purchase them per round if they have to.

    I'm having a hard time coming up with anything "extreme" as most big bullets were designed for the 458. Some load-data lists the 400 grain bullet as the max for a 45-70 1895, but others say 500 is fine? Can anyone confirm a heavy load for this cartridge and rifle that I can pass along? Or perhaps point me to other resources that I can research a little further.

    Thanks in advance.



    warpig883
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 2818
    (3/16/02 10:40:28 pm)
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    Welcome to TFF Extremities.

    I am absolutley not the guy to ask about rifle reloading but we have a few around here you know theri stuff.

    WyomingSwede is a 45-70 guide gun fella and he might be able to help.

    Once again welcome and somebody will be along to give you some info

    kdub01
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 375
    (3/16/02 11:23:54 pm)
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    Howdy, Extremities -

    A Big Welcome to the board and thanks for your first posting. Even better, it's something that builds a fire in the innermost desire of this ol' shooter and reloader!

    To quote from the Hornady reloading manual, 5th Ed.: "The 1895 (Marlin) is shown with the 300 grain hollow point and the 350 grain round nose, but NOT (my emphasis) the 500 grain round nose. The 500 grain round nose, when loaded to function through the magazine, has the bullet seated with the cannelure below the mouth of the case, which takes up too much case volume and allows no place for crimping. A good crimp is of UTMOST IMPORTANCE (again, my emphasis) in a rifle with a tubular magazine and heavy recoil, such as the 45-70 Marlin."

    OK, that being said, I've loaded up some 405 grain Remington round noses and they seem to function fine through my Marlin 1895 LTD with a 24" bbl. Only problem, they also, have to be seated pretty deep, in fact - past the ogive step on the front of the bullet, to get a crimp at the maximum OAL of the loaded cartridge. Haven't tried to fire a magazine full of them to determine the effect on the cartridges in the magazine, tho.

    Right now, I'm working up a load with the 350 grain Hornady round noses that are around 2200 fps out of the 24" tube, using Alliant RL-7, Accurate Arms 2015 and VihtaVuori N133 powders, lit off with Winchester standard WLR primers. I can guarantee these loads are about all I want to handle with this rifle - and I'm not really recoil shy. I'd say the 350 gr or the 405 gr bullets, if able to hold in the magazine at the crimp line, would give you about all the horsepower you or your clients will be able to handle in the shorter barreled guide guns. As I'm fond of telling those who want to shoot the gun with these loads, "They'll knock the slobbers out of you!"

    The Hornady 350 gr RN's have a B.C of .189 and a S.D. of .238. They are rated by Hornady for medium, large and dangerous game, so they have plenty of penetration and lots of energy out to 200 yds. At muzzle distance confrontations, they are developing 3780 ft/lbs, which should get the attention of the most aggrivated griz or brownie!

    Ken

    Edited by: kdub01 at: 3/16/02 11:50:51 pm

    Extremities
    Member
    Posts: 3
    (3/16/02 11:46:32 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del Re: .45-70 Guide Gun Heavy Loads
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    Thanks for replying so quickly.

    One other point I'd like to make. I also read the signifigance of the crimping cannelure in one of my load manuals, which brought my attention to the Speer African Grand Slam bullets which are made of tungsten instead of lead.

    Quoted from www.speer-bullets.com
    "Instead of lead, we use a rod of tungsten carbide that's 30 percent denser than lead. The result is a full-weight yet compact bullet that allows more powder to be loaded. In the 458 Winchester Magnum, you can gain 600 foot-pounds of energy over conventional 500 grain bullets and still maintain safe pressures."

    These particular bullets come at an extreme premium, unlike anything else I've ever loaded. But what intrigues me is the shorter bullet, possibly allowing a deeper seating? I need to find someone that is using these to know for sure, I think. Are these bullets worth the obscene prices even if we end up "settling" for a 400 grain?

    The main reason we're chasing the 500 is several ammo manufacturers in the US are marketing these as the ultimate load in the 1895 - 45-70. I'm sure I have their trust in which whatever I determine to be the best for our situations will be the ammo they take. I don't want to let them down

    WyomingSwede
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 335
    (3/17/02 8:46:23 am)
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    Doesn't Randy Garrett make some extremely hot loads for the 1895 with his buffalo bore ammo company? I believe they exit at 2000fps.
    I have not tinkered with any 500 gr bullets in my guide gun. I do like the 405 gr laser cast bullets.
    I know that the gun rags love this subject. Let me do some research and I'll be back. swede
    Wyoming Swede

    the real fredneck
    V.I.P. Member
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    (3/17/02 10:29:27 am)
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    when I got my 1895G the rags were saying that you could interchange 450 Marlin data for 45/70 as long as it was shot in a modern Marlin, my experience has been that slower powders burn incompletely in that short barrel, have been experimenting with 4227 in a 300HP load looks good so far, as a load you would tire of shooting quickly a compressed load of 4064 (55gr) w/405 cast slug reminds you of the time they all yelled, DUCK! and you said, huh?

    AGunguy
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 1538
    (3/17/02 10:54:38 am)
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    So, you want to load 500 grain bullets. My old Hodgdons No. 22 manual says: 500 grain ( doesn't mention lead or jacketed) at 60 grains of 4831 powder...will achieve 1383 fps velocity...and that is a maximum load. I might also mention that was shot from a 26 inch barrel 1886 Winchester.

    More Hodgdon loads

    45/70 Heavy loads for 500 grain bullet in Ruger or Marlin Model 1895 with 22 inch barrel:

    Powder----Grains-------Velocity

    H335........60.0 gr........1638 fps
    BL-C(2)....53.0 gr........1623 fps
    4895........52.0 gr........1679 fps
    H332........50.0 gr........1667 fps
    H4198......43.0 gr........1607 fps
    H4227......34.0 gr........1468 fps

    While my Lyman manual No. 45 says: 552 grain cast w/gas check will take 39 grains of IMR 3031 powder and push the lead to 1442 fps velocity. Note: These loads were also made for the 1886 Winchester with 26 inch barrel.

    Now, when you figure in the foot pound energy figures...this is quite a whopper at close range. Recoil is going to be awsome.

    Hope this helps.

    Gunguy

    Edited by: AGunguy at: 3/17/02 7:24:52 pm

    kdub01
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 379
    (3/17/02 11:27:48 pm)
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    Saw on the Huntingnut.com forum, a load of 49.0 gr of H4895 under a 500 gr Lazercast and a standard LR primer was good for 1675 fps, a 1"- 3 shot group at 50 yds, and MASSIVE recoil from a Marlin Guide Gun with the 18.5" bbl.

    I'd try to talk someone I didn't particularily like into shooting this load for me!!!!

    Extremities
    Member
    Posts: 4
    (3/18/02 6:55:49 pm)
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    Thanks for the updates. I've looked a little more, and talked again with my main client, and asked what the "ideal round" would be and what he may be willing to sacrifice. He came back with "Garret's .45-70 rhino-busting 540grain +P SuperHardCast HammerHead" as the ideal round but would settle for something 400 Grain or over with an decent velocity.

    I'm going to look into the Garrett stuff tonight instead of playing video games, and see if I can get any further with that.

    I'm excited to now have a load consisting of a 500 grain for the 1895, but I'm not sure where I can buy "Lazercast" bullets. Ideally I'm hoping for a round containing a bullet which can be easily aquired, and not specifically special ordered.

    I realize I'm asking for alot. But I want to research this as much as I can before deciding on one round that we will be selling to everyone.

    Extremities
    Member
    Posts: 6
    (3/18/02 10:16:03 pm)
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    Excuse my ignorance, but is the +P part of the Garrett ammo designate an "enhanced" calibre? Or will it work fine in a 45-70 chamber?

    AGunguy
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 1561
    (3/19/02 2:01:31 pm)
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    More about 500 grain tungesten and FMJ bullets for the 45-70.

    I noticed in my 1999 Graf & Son catalog from Mexico, MO, that African Grand Slam Bullets of the 500 grain tungesten are a bit pricey at $101.35 for a mere box of 25. That's about $4.05 a tungesten bullet, and that doesn't figure in the brass, primer or powder.

    While the Hornady FMJ round nose 500 grain bullet is only $32.32 for a box of 50.

    I would like to know what advantage there is shooting tungesten bullets over the Hornady bullets?

    Gunguy


    Edited by: AGunguy at: 3/19/02 4:33:08 pm

    the real fredneck
    V.I.P. Member
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    (3/19/02 9:46:43 pm)
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    extremeties, the Garrett loads will work in standard 45/70 chambers wouldn't use anything but modern gun though

    Gunguy, I'm with you, that much per bullet folks would nickname someone "The Man With the Golden Gun" seems to me 500gr is 500gr if money is no object when will someone come up with one made of depleted uranium? kill them lions, tigers, and bears deader than dead

    AGunguy
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 1564
    (3/19/02 11:17:36 pm)
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    But I sure would like to find out more info on those tungesten bullets, what is the big deal...is it expansion with lots of penetration?

    Seems like the Hornadys could do just as well.

    I checked the guys bio but no address, bet he's up in Alaska by the bear talk.

    GG

    WyomingSwede
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 339
    (3/20/02 12:00:16 am)
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    i love lasercast bullets...no problem leading. They are the Oregon Trail Bullet company and are at

    www.laser-cast.com


    hope that helps. swede
    Wyoming Swede

    Extremities
    Member
    Posts: 7
    (3/20/02 9:43:06 pm)
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    Is "The Guy" me? I'm in Northern BC with a large bear population where they're allowing fewer grizzly hunts which means they're getting a little braver. The information I've found so far tells me the tungsten bullets give zero expansion with 100% weight retention in a smaller package (but with the same weight) than the lead/SP/FMJ stuff. If these are the ultimate bullet, than that's what I'm after. But I'm still unable to find any loads for them.

    AGunguy
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 1571
    (3/20/02 11:14:06 pm)
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    OK, thanks. I get the picture now...penetration with no loss of bullet separation.

    Now, I'm no expert on big game, especially big bruins, but isn't it more prudent to tear a big ass wound channel deep into said bruin rather than poking a hole in one that might possibly go through it entirely? Loss of blood and shock would seem vitally important to downing one of these beasties.

    And if you want to load faster than 1600 fps you will have to drop down to about a 405 grain bullet, then you don't gain that much more in velocity. I believe 1660 fps with a 500 grain bullet = over 3,000 foot pounds of energy. This energy is better served lodged inside the bear rather than punching a hole through one.

    You need to figure the foot pound energy figures with the 500 grain bullets...its awsome.

    GG

    Edited by: AGunguy at: 3/22/02 9:42:36 pm

    Idahoshooter
    Member
    Posts: 3
    (2/20/03 1:41:01 am)
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    I can tell you that if you want a serious cartridge for serious work, go with Garrett all the way.
    I've shot both the "light and heavy" loads he offers for the 45-70. My Marlin 1895 with a 22" ballard rifled barrel shoots from 2 to 4" groups at 100yds. Could be better, but the recoil is rough when shooting from the bench.
    Bullet weight retention is between 98 and 100%.
    Shot a Roosevelt elk straight through both shoulders, breaking both, bullet kept going into a stump. It was deep enough that I couldn't find it. Shot was right at 90 yards. The elk was down in his tracks.
    I'm sure it will work on Bears.

    Good luck, and shoot straight on the range, and in life.
  2. Brasso

    Brasso New Member

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    Just for your information. There are several tool makers out there that make cannelure tools for jacketed bullets. For the big boys you probably want to stick with cast though. I saw one in the latest Handuns mag that was advertised at $50.
  3. Gunguy

    Gunguy Guest

    Hey, I've got a C&H cannalure tool in like new condition, think I've still got the box it came in.

    Yours for $50 and I pay postage.

    Gunguy
  4. tomgun

    tomgun New Member

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    I own two 45/70 guide guns and handload all my ammo. I live and hunt in Alaska where the big beasts roam. I have found the Speer 400 Gr jacketed flatnose to be a good all around bullets for general shooting. It does have a thin jacket, perfect for moose and black bear. My favorite load for this bullet is 50 grains of H-322. From my 18.5 inch guide gun it is rolling out around 1800fps
    This is a moderate load, not max. yet it will cleaning kill any thing in Alaska except the big Brownie's. For the largest bears I stick with the 400 grain bullets
    because they have the weight needed and still can go at 1800 to 2000fps.
    For the big bears use either the new Barnes Buster's .458-- 400 grain with
    50 to 52 grains of H-322 or a 405 Lead hard cast with gas check, ( I cast my own and cold water drench them from the mould) using the same powder charge as the Barnes Busters. These two types shoot like a solid and will kill anything in Alaska and probably the planet. This works good for me. I have a Marlin SBL with a 18.5 inch barrel and the new Marlin STP with a 16 inch barrel and they both love shooting the 400 grain bullets.
    Good Luck and good shooting
    Tomgun
  5. dsv424

    dsv424 New Member

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  6. pricedo

    pricedo Member

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    [​IMG]

    I own 2 Guide Guns, a NEF Handi-Rifle, a Baikal MP221 SxS, Pedersoli 86/71, Winchester 1886 Extra Light all in 45-70 Gvt.
    Do I like 45-70s?
    Kinda :D
    The 1886 EL with the Buffalo Barnes ammo from the Buffalo Bore company featuring the 500 grain Barnes Buster Bullet is the cats meow for big bear protection.
    For bears event chronology is important you need a gun that will STOP the bear BEFORE it kills you with BEFORE being the operative word.
    The 1886EL has a 22" barrel.......not too short & not too long.
    The Guide guns have 18.5" barrels.
    The extra 3.5" of barrel in favor of the 1886EL does matter.
    I don't mess with "kids stuff" (the 308s, 30-06s, 300 & 338 mags) when it comes to bear protection. I want that bruin flat on the ground before the sound of the hammer hitting the firing pin fades.
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