45 ACP Carbine

Discussion in 'Self Defense Tactics & Weapons' started by Claudius Valarium, Feb 20, 2011.

  1. Claudius Valarium

    Claudius Valarium Member

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    I'm considering getting a 45 ACP carbine for home defense instead of HD 12ga shotgun w/ 00 buck. Looking for input on this. I have seen Marlin's Camp Carbine, Beretta Cx4 and Hi-Point 45 ACP Carbine.

    Seems to me Marlin discontinued the Camp Carbine because there were problems that they didn't want to continue to deal with, although looking through TFF posts there are some that have had little or no problems with the Marlin.

    I'm not a big fan of the "new" polymer look of the Beretta and Hi-Point, I'm more old school. That being said, it's job is to work when called upon and not to look good (IMO) shooting BGs. So, I can deal with that.

    I like the Auto Ordinance Thompson semi-auto too. But, that's just crazy $.

    CV
  2. Claudius Valarium

    Claudius Valarium Member

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  3. Claudius Valarium

    Claudius Valarium Member

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    Thanks, definitely another option.
  4. CampingJosh

    CampingJosh Well-Known Member

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    You're definitely free to do whatever you want, but I tend to think of the pistol-caliber carbines as play guns, not work guns.

    Handgun rounds are pretty anemic compared to rifle or shotgun rounds. If you're planning for a fight (and that is exactly what preparing for home defense is), then you want to set it up in a way that your position is advantageous and the intruder's position is compromised. One way to build your advantage is to make sure that you are armed with the best possible weapons.

    The Hi Point and the Beretta carbines are about the same length and weight of an AR. (~3" shorter for Hi Point, ~5" for the Beretta). You'd save just a bit more than that off the shotgun. But you're losing A LOT in the way of stopping power.

    Each pellet in 00 buck shot is 55 grains. 9 pellets at 1325 fps (Winchester Super-X 2.75") is 214 foot pounds of energy each, 1926 foot pounds total.
    The best performance I could find from an 18" .45 ACP carbine was a Cor Bon 165 grain +p JHP at 1450 fps, which comes to a total of 770 foot pounds.
    A basic .223 64 grain bullet leaves the muzzle around 3050 fps, which is 1322 foot pounds.

    I know comparing energy like this is pretty simplistic, but there really isn't an upside to the .45 ACP. The shotgun gives you more energy plus multiple wound channels. The .223 gives you more energy plus hydrostatic shock.

    If you want the little carbine, you may want to consider the FN FS2000. It's smaller than an AR (same size as the Hi Point) but still uses AR mags and the .223/5.56.

    Again, it's your life, your home, and your responsibility. Many people are perfectly comfortable with the .45 ACP from a 5" barrel, and the .45 carbines are definitely an improvement over that. If you're comfortable with the idea, then go for it. However, I don't think that it's an improvement over shotgun you already have.

    It could certainly serve as a supplement to the shotgun; that may be your best bet. I hope others chime in to offer their opinions, too, because I am NOT an expert. Whatever you get, train with it until you're proficient, and then keep training. :)
  5. Carne Frio

    Carne Frio Member

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    I like pistol caliber carbines and have a few. The calibers include 9mm, 10mm, .45acp
    357 and 44 mag. For home defense and bear defense when hiking I prefer the 12g.
    For home defense it's loaded with 00 buck and for bears it's 3 inch Brenneke slugs.
  6. ckill1

    ckill1 New Member

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    Inside the home an AR(in .223) scares me with overpenetration. Also, with a .223 the myth(or belief, however you look at it) of "hydrostatic shock" is lessened. Such a small, fast mover like a .223 delivers a lot of energy, but good luck in keeping that energy inside your target. If you want a .45 carbine for home defense, I think you would be well served, but as an old fashioned gun guy, why not look at a Ruger .44 carbine? They are nifty little guns made of wood and metal & can still be had at reasonable prices if you are patient. I do have to agree, however, that the shotgun is the king when it comes to home protection...
  7. CampingJosh

    CampingJosh Well-Known Member

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    Over-penetration isn't an issue for everyone.

    I could fire a .308 in any direction from inside my house without endangering anyone. Nearest neighbor is about 400 yards away, through about 100 yards of thick woods. Outside that two-degree angle, we're talking more than half a mile and much, much more woods in between.

    Ever seen the exit wound from a .223? It's not 0.223" in diameter. Last raccoon we shot with it, I could have fit my fist into the hole.

    Maybe a picture would help explain it. WARNING: THIS PHOTOGRAPH IS VERY GRAPHIC! Click here to see a leg wound from a .223/5.56 hit.

    Now here are two points we can definitely agree on! The shotgun is the home defense king, and those old Rugers are a particularly sweet weapon!
  8. ckill1

    ckill1 New Member

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    Yup, Josh, I sure have. Guess I should have explained my experience a bit before making such a blanket statement...Im a nurse in a university trauma center ICU. Taking care of gunshot woulds(GSW) is part of what I do every day. I also teach the effects of GSWs, their recognition, & treatment to residents & other nurses. On the side I occasionally testify as an expert witness for the Pott Cty Prosecutor for GSW classification.
    Now, an exit wound isnt caused by hydrostatic shock. The term hydrostatic shock refers to the supposed ability to immediately shut down the central nervous system of a bad guy or game animal by shooting them someplace in the torso or near a blood bearing vessel with a high speed projectile. The theory being that the impact causes pressure waves that can disrupt neural tissues. It has NOTHING to do with the size of an exit would.

    CK
  9. Regular Joe

    Regular Joe New Member

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    I've been kicking the idea around of a pistol caliber carbine for awhile now as well. For me, it would be 9mm, and the Mechtech is the most attractive. The problem with that is that it would claim my Golck 17 action, and cost about $650 in addition to the Glock frame, properly set up.
    Better than that would be this little monster:
    http://www.hendersondefense.com/store/pc/Draco-7-62-AK47-Handgun-17p213.htm
    The front grip could be modified to mount a light/laser. You can get the Wolf 125 gr. SP ammo from Cheaper than dirt for about $125 for 500 rounds. This thing is compatible with 75 round drum magazines, but the standard 30 rounds is probably adequate.
    I already have a Yugo M70AB2 underfolder, so I feel little need for the Draco.
    In my little abode, there is a Rem. 870 Riot gun, loaded with #2 shot. In my tests, I've found that this load penetrates 2 sheets of 1/2" plywood, with very dense dispersion at indoor distances. I trust that to neutralize any threat.
    You're probably better off to keep your .45 configured as a pistol, and one with a double stack magazine would be best. A pistol is less likely to snag on things in the dark, and more likely to be retained by you in a scuffle.
    There is only so much one can do to be prepared. It's important to have decent equipment, and there are limits to how much one can reasonably deploy. The rest is training and mindset.
  10. CampingJosh

    CampingJosh Well-Known Member

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    Ah, so you've seen it much, much more than I have. (We need a smiley face for vomiting. Maybe :eek: plus :p with a little of :eek:)

    I understood the term in a much more general sense. Hydrostatic pressure, that is, pressure moving through fluids (such as body tissue), can cause trauma to areas that are not directly impacted by the projectile.

    Whatever the claims about a shot to the chest disrupting the central nervous system, I was intending only to speak to the area immediately surrounding the path of the projectile through the body. (I guess I don't know what other term would be appropriate here. Help, anyone?) Am I wrong is saying that the .223/5.56 causes a lot more body trauma than a .45 ACP?

    I guess it's just going to boil down to this: I have a couple different friends who were career soldiers and have lived a lot more combat that I will ever even see on TV--one now passed on, the other still currently serving as an instructor for the Army--who have both related the same thing to me. They have told me that the purpose of a handgun is to get you to a "real" gun. If you can start with the rifle, why wouldn't you?
  11. CampingJosh

    CampingJosh Well-Known Member

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    When we're talking about a weapon snagging on things in the dark, we're doing something wrong. If at all possible, you do not want to be moving around looking for the intruder/threat. In my house, if I cover the hallway, which I can do from inside my bedroom, then no one can get into any of the bedrooms. (And right now, no one lives in any other bedroom anyway.)

    Searching for the other person takes away your advantage. Part of your planning should include a place for you to stay where you have the advantage and the intruder does not. Walking around puts you on the same foot (or worse if there are multiple intruders), and I don't want to go to a 50/50 situation when I can have the 80/20 or better advantage.
  12. ckill1

    ckill1 New Member

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    Josh-

    it is certainly true that .223 with properly placed shots & correctly chosen bullets is capable of more tissue destruction than a .45. Remember the calculation for energy potential of a projectile is 1/2 mass x velocity SQUARED, so velocity is weighted more heavily than mass. However, the ability to utilize all that energy is where the .223 is limiited. If your projectile leaves the body, energy is wasted. Thats not to say you havent created enough damage to incapacitate, but anytime you have both an entrance & exit wound, excess energy exists. In a home defence situation, where innocent people may be present(wife, children, etc.) I would much prefer a .45. Plenty of wounding potential with large temporary & permanent wound channels. PM me of you are interseted further...I have a great powerpoint with many fantastic pictures illustrating temporary vs. permanent wound channels & wounding potential.

    CK
  13. zeksplayground

    zeksplayground New Member

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    i love mine i have shot about a box or two through it. not a single problem and most can be solved with a buffer and or spring, and the resell value heck yeah i was told i can sell mine for around seven hundred. think i will sell mine and put it toward an a1 what yall think. .
  14. zeksplayground

    zeksplayground New Member

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    need to know what yall think soon my b-days coming up hehe
  15. CampingJosh

    CampingJosh Well-Known Member

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    We're going to need more info. What is yours?

    And there are several firearm models that have an "A1" designation: M1A1, 1911A1, etc.

    Welcome to TFF!
  16. redwing carson

    redwing carson Former Guest

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    The use of handgun ammo has a very long history. The very popular 1892 Winchester was only chambered in handgun ctgs. The exception being the 25-20 which was never a handgun round. The 9MM and the .45 ACP have a very long history in carbines. I have a 9MM Parabellum Spainish Destroyer carbine its a kick. good luck:)

    RC
  17. hunter29180

    hunter29180 Active Member

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    personal experance here guys..Had a ruger mini 14 in .223 loved to shoot it, in fact was a tack driver. then one day a massive pit bull attacked and killed our german shepard, got the kids in and grabbed the 14. now i had a 20 round clip in it too. from about 45 yards away i shot that pit, staggered him, he turned and came for me..folks i put ALL 20 rounds in him!! if my wife had not grabbed the 357 ruger and nailed him at 15 ft from me, i would not be here... took the dog to a vet friend, he pulled 12 .223 rounds from the don and counted 29 holes in him, one from the 357 (it was a solid head shot) i had hit him 2 times in the head, the bullets hit the skull and turned off not penetrating the skull, 3 had hit the heart, the rest shredded the lungs. i sold the mini 14 for 75 bucks the next day.

    while i know and understand the .223 is used by many and my case is unsual, it was my life on the line and it failed... i agree the "shock" value is overrated, it just too small a round to do the MASSIVE damage needed to stop a agressive attacker in its tracks. (man or beast) so for home defence or when your life depends on it use a shotgun or large cal pistol!!
  18. redwing carson

    redwing carson Former Guest

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    Sounds like an old 30-30 with 150gr. Flat noses would have served you better.Good luck:)

    RC
  19. carver

    carver Moderator

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    For those of you who think that the .223 will over penetrate as a HD gun: http://www.olyarms.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=15&Itemid=26

    Personally, as far as HD goes, I'll stick with my trusty old 12 gague, and my .45 as my BUG! Like Josh, I live in a very rual area, so my shotgun is loaded with 00 Buck up first, followed by a slug, etc, etc., over penitration is not a concern. I personally do not like the .223 round, to me it's just a 22 LR bullet on steroids. But make no mistakes 10 grains in the right place would do a whole lot more than many times that in the wrong place.
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2011
  20. Brisk44

    Brisk44 New Member

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    I have two Marlin camp carbines, One in 9mm and one in .45. Love them both and they are great shooters. Don't know about the home defense issue, I think that is what ever you are comfortable with. But have heard the other carbines mentioned shoot well and are a lot of fun. Get one what have you got to lose? I'm sure you will love it.
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