45 ACP Carbine

Discussion in 'Self Defense Tactics & Weapons' started by Claudius Valarium, Feb 20, 2011.

  1. Claudius Valarium

    Claudius Valarium Member

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    I'm considering getting a 45 ACP carbine for home defense instead of HD 12ga shotgun w/ 00 buck. Looking for input on this. I have seen Marlin's Camp Carbine, Beretta Cx4 and Hi-Point 45 ACP Carbine.

    Seems to me Marlin discontinued the Camp Carbine because there were problems that they didn't want to continue to deal with, although looking through TFF posts there are some that have had little or no problems with the Marlin.

    I'm not a big fan of the "new" polymer look of the Beretta and Hi-Point, I'm more old school. That being said, it's job is to work when called upon and not to look good (IMO) shooting BGs. So, I can deal with that.

    I like the Auto Ordinance Thompson semi-auto too. But, that's just crazy $.

    CV
  2. Claudius Valarium

    Claudius Valarium Member

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  3. Claudius Valarium

    Claudius Valarium Member

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    Thanks, definitely another option.
  4. CampingJosh

    CampingJosh Moderator

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    You're definitely free to do whatever you want, but I tend to think of the pistol-caliber carbines as play guns, not work guns.

    Handgun rounds are pretty anemic compared to rifle or shotgun rounds. If you're planning for a fight (and that is exactly what preparing for home defense is), then you want to set it up in a way that your position is advantageous and the intruder's position is compromised. One way to build your advantage is to make sure that you are armed with the best possible weapons.

    The Hi Point and the Beretta carbines are about the same length and weight of an AR. (~3" shorter for Hi Point, ~5" for the Beretta). You'd save just a bit more than that off the shotgun. But you're losing A LOT in the way of stopping power.

    Each pellet in 00 buck shot is 55 grains. 9 pellets at 1325 fps (Winchester Super-X 2.75") is 214 foot pounds of energy each, 1926 foot pounds total.
    The best performance I could find from an 18" .45 ACP carbine was a Cor Bon 165 grain +p JHP at 1450 fps, which comes to a total of 770 foot pounds.
    A basic .223 64 grain bullet leaves the muzzle around 3050 fps, which is 1322 foot pounds.

    I know comparing energy like this is pretty simplistic, but there really isn't an upside to the .45 ACP. The shotgun gives you more energy plus multiple wound channels. The .223 gives you more energy plus hydrostatic shock.

    If you want the little carbine, you may want to consider the FN FS2000. It's smaller than an AR (same size as the Hi Point) but still uses AR mags and the .223/5.56.

    Again, it's your life, your home, and your responsibility. Many people are perfectly comfortable with the .45 ACP from a 5" barrel, and the .45 carbines are definitely an improvement over that. If you're comfortable with the idea, then go for it. However, I don't think that it's an improvement over shotgun you already have.

    It could certainly serve as a supplement to the shotgun; that may be your best bet. I hope others chime in to offer their opinions, too, because I am NOT an expert. Whatever you get, train with it until you're proficient, and then keep training. :)
  5. Carne Frio

    Carne Frio Member

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    I like pistol caliber carbines and have a few. The calibers include 9mm, 10mm, .45acp
    357 and 44 mag. For home defense and bear defense when hiking I prefer the 12g.
    For home defense it's loaded with 00 buck and for bears it's 3 inch Brenneke slugs.
  6. ckill1

    ckill1 New Member

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    Inside the home an AR(in .223) scares me with overpenetration. Also, with a .223 the myth(or belief, however you look at it) of "hydrostatic shock" is lessened. Such a small, fast mover like a .223 delivers a lot of energy, but good luck in keeping that energy inside your target. If you want a .45 carbine for home defense, I think you would be well served, but as an old fashioned gun guy, why not look at a Ruger .44 carbine? They are nifty little guns made of wood and metal & can still be had at reasonable prices if you are patient. I do have to agree, however, that the shotgun is the king when it comes to home protection...
  7. CampingJosh

    CampingJosh Moderator

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    Over-penetration isn't an issue for everyone.

    I could fire a .308 in any direction from inside my house without endangering anyone. Nearest neighbor is about 400 yards away, through about 100 yards of thick woods. Outside that two-degree angle, we're talking more than half a mile and much, much more woods in between.

    Ever seen the exit wound from a .223? It's not 0.223" in diameter. Last raccoon we shot with it, I could have fit my fist into the hole.

    Maybe a picture would help explain it. WARNING: THIS PHOTOGRAPH IS VERY GRAPHIC! Click here to see a leg wound from a .223/5.56 hit.

    Now here are two points we can definitely agree on! The shotgun is the home defense king, and those old Rugers are a particularly sweet weapon!
  8. ckill1

    ckill1 New Member

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    Yup, Josh, I sure have. Guess I should have explained my experience a bit before making such a blanket statement...Im a nurse in a university trauma center ICU. Taking care of gunshot woulds(GSW) is part of what I do every day. I also teach the effects of GSWs, their recognition, & treatment to residents & other nurses. On the side I occasionally testify as an expert witness for the Pott Cty Prosecutor for GSW classification.
    Now, an exit wound isnt caused by hydrostatic shock. The term hydrostatic shock refers to the supposed ability to immediately shut down the central nervous system of a bad guy or game animal by shooting them someplace in the torso or near a blood bearing vessel with a high speed projectile. The theory being that the impact causes pressure waves that can disrupt neural tissues. It has NOTHING to do with the size of an exit would.

    CK
  9. Regular Joe

    Regular Joe New Member

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    I've been kicking the idea around of a pistol caliber carbine for awhile now as well. For me, it would be 9mm, and the Mechtech is the most attractive. The problem with that is that it would claim my Golck 17 action, and cost about $650 in addition to the Glock frame, properly set up.
    Better than that would be this little monster:
    http://www.hendersondefense.com/store/pc/Draco-7-62-AK47-Handgun-17p213.htm
    The front grip could be modified to mount a light/laser. You can get the Wolf 125 gr. SP ammo from Cheaper than dirt for about $125 for 500 rounds. This thing is compatible with 75 round drum magazines, but the standard 30 rounds is probably adequate.
    I already have a Yugo M70AB2 underfolder, so I feel little need for the Draco.
    In my little abode, there is a Rem. 870 Riot gun, loaded with #2 shot. In my tests, I've found that this load penetrates 2 sheets of 1/2" plywood, with very dense dispersion at indoor distances. I trust that to neutralize any threat.
    You're probably better off to keep your .45 configured as a pistol, and one with a double stack magazine would be best. A pistol is less likely to snag on things in the dark, and more likely to be retained by you in a scuffle.
    There is only so much one can do to be prepared. It's important to have decent equipment, and there are limits to how much one can reasonably deploy. The rest is training and mindset.
  10. CampingJosh

    CampingJosh Moderator

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    Ah, so you've seen it much, much more than I have. (We need a smiley face for vomiting. Maybe :eek: plus :p with a little of :eek:)

    I understood the term in a much more general sense. Hydrostatic pressure, that is, pressure moving through fluids (such as body tissue), can cause trauma to areas that are not directly impacted by the projectile.

    Whatever the claims about a shot to the chest disrupting the central nervous system, I was intending only to speak to the area immediately surrounding the path of the projectile through the body. (I guess I don't know what other term would be appropriate here. Help, anyone?) Am I wrong is saying that the .223/5.56 causes a lot more body trauma than a .45 ACP?

    I guess it's just going to boil down to this: I have a couple different friends who were career soldiers and have lived a lot more combat that I will ever even see on TV--one now passed on, the other still currently serving as an instructor for the Army--who have both related the same thing to me. They have told me that the purpose of a handgun is to get you to a "real" gun. If you can start with the rifle, why wouldn't you?
  11. CampingJosh

    CampingJosh Moderator

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    When we're talking about a weapon snagging on things in the dark, we're doing something wrong. If at all possible, you do not want to be moving around looking for the intruder/threat. In my house, if I cover the hallway, which I can do from inside my bedroom, then no one can get into any of the bedrooms. (And right now, no one lives in any other bedroom anyway.)

    Searching for the other person takes away your advantage. Part of your planning should include a place for you to stay where you have the advantage and the intruder does not. Walking around puts you on the same foot (or worse if there are multiple intruders), and I don't want to go to a 50/50 situation when I can have the 80/20 or better advantage.
  12. ckill1

    ckill1 New Member

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    Josh-

    it is certainly true that .223 with properly placed shots & correctly chosen bullets is capable of more tissue destruction than a .45. Remember the calculation for energy potential of a projectile is 1/2 mass x velocity SQUARED, so velocity is weighted more heavily than mass. However, the ability to utilize all that energy is where the .223 is limiited. If your projectile leaves the body, energy is wasted. Thats not to say you havent created enough damage to incapacitate, but anytime you have both an entrance & exit wound, excess energy exists. In a home defence situation, where innocent people may be present(wife, children, etc.) I would much prefer a .45. Plenty of wounding potential with large temporary & permanent wound channels. PM me of you are interseted further...I have a great powerpoint with many fantastic pictures illustrating temporary vs. permanent wound channels & wounding potential.

    CK
  13. zeksplayground

    zeksplayground New Member

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    i love mine i have shot about a box or two through it. not a single problem and most can be solved with a buffer and or spring, and the resell value heck yeah i was told i can sell mine for around seven hundred. think i will sell mine and put it toward an a1 what yall think. .
  14. zeksplayground

    zeksplayground New Member

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    need to know what yall think soon my b-days coming up hehe
  15. CampingJosh

    CampingJosh Moderator

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    We're going to need more info. What is yours?

    And there are several firearm models that have an "A1" designation: M1A1, 1911A1, etc.

    Welcome to TFF!
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