.45 ammo- FMJ vs JHP

Discussion in 'The 1911 Forum' started by rocklinskier, Dec 2, 2009.

  1. rocklinskier

    rocklinskier New Member

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    Yup, ammo prices around here pretty much straight up suck!

    Yesterday, I found some Rem GS 230 JHP at a big box sporting goods for $30! They have never had them in there before. They only had 5 boxes. I bought one box. Everywhere else, they have been $37 - $40. No joke. Would have bought more, but things are tight right now. Been outta work and cash is king.

    The Mag techs, when you can find them (difficult), are $35/ 20 for the 185g

    I've looked on line, but don't see where they are any cheaper, especially after shipping.

    Best price on FMJ here: WallyWorld, Win WB, $35/100, but dang near impossible to find. Gotta just about be standing there when the truck rolls in, and it seems to only roll in about once a month.

    Next best. Local GS, Blazer AL case, $19/50 Blazer Lawman(brass) $21/50

    That's why I have a reload kit on my Christmas list!!
  2. Insulation Tim

    Insulation Tim Active Member

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    Masood Ayoob addresses this issue and has some surprising statistics that back up using a JHP, especially in a .45. In essence, your are looking for a bullet that remains in the body and spent its energy there. FMJ, will many time penetrate and unless hitting bone or major organ, pass through and damage something or somebody else.

    I'm JHP for defense and FMJ or lead SWC for the range.
  3. delta13soultaker

    delta13soultaker New Member

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    Ayoob wrote years ago about the number of cops hit by "suspect shot-through bullets" with .357 Mag, 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP every year.

    The number was pretty high.

    The reason cops are more susceptible is that cops are often converging on a suspect simultaneously if it goes from a standoff with a belligerent suspect with no weapon to shooting when the suspect introduces a concealed weapon. (Bystanders tend to be going away, not toward, the trouble, thus relatively less likely to be hit by shoot through.)

    Shoot-through does happen regardless of caliber. Bystanders do get hit. If it can happen it will. An account I read about....a photo studio owner was robbed as he opened his store one morning. After getting the money, the robber shot the owner in the temple of the head and left him to die. The owner recovered from the impact after a few moments, struggled to his feet, retrieved a .40 S&W from his briefcase, and went outside. The robber was in the process of carjacking a car. He had shoved the female driver into the passenger seat when the first .40 S&W bullets hit him. One bullet passed through his torso and hit the female. The female sued the owner very soon after. The owner settled the lawsuit during trail with a settlement.


    Handguns stop threats by sufficiently penetrating blood-rich organs and crushing a hole that cause blood lose. The faster the blood loss, the faster the drop in blood pressure. An expanded JHP crushes a bigger hole, thus enables more blood loss.

    A handgun bullet wounding mechanism has more in common with a spearhead or arrowhead than it does with a rifle bullet.

    Handgun kinetic energy does not wound. A 16 oz weight (1 pound) dropped from 11.4 feet (27.1 fps) has the same kinetic energy as a .45 ACP. A ten pound weight equals dropped from 1.4 inches (2.71 fps) the impact of a .45 ACP.

    Handgun stretch cavity in gel is a wounding false indicator. Living tissue bounces back unharmed.

    We need over 1,000 ft-lbs of energy before wounding from stretch begins and 2,000 ft-lbs before it is significant enough to be relevant. Unless looking at rifle ft-lbs, it is not relevant. Ammo manufacturers simply sell ft-lbs the way car manufacturers advertise horsepower...it is deceiving and works to get buyers, but neither one alone is really relevant to overall performance (Where you max torque in the rpm power band determines acceleration speed).


    Analyzing shooting statistics is nice, but amounts to mental masturbation.

    One shot stop statistics are inherently flawed in that scientific statistical analysis is dependent on the null hypothesis in order to either reject or not reject a set of data. Since compiling street data has no control variable, it can never be propped up against significance testing.

    Nobody every took 100 death row convicts and shot them with something to compare to later.

    We also disregard any shooting that used more than one wound therefore disregards all types of further relevant data.

    Subjects may vary from 140 pound black starved crackhead awake fore 3 days in December in Chicago to 300 pound white calculated psycho stalker in July in Florida to 190 pound drunk enraged Hispanic in California, and on and on...all shot by 9mm Silvertip etc...without accounting for more of what type of personality, mental state, physical state/fitness, chemicals, etc are factors in most or none of the shootings.

    Lets say most of the one shot .40 S&W STX shootings happen to be on 140 pound crackheads...well odds are that STX round will reflect many stops. But if on the other hand most of the data is on very large or very fit or on people taking methamphetamines, opiates, or barbiturates instead of crack, the STX will reflect poorly.

    Statistics available are very unscientific, therefore they are about as reliable as the statistics casinos put next to the roulette tables. Just because earlier tonight Red-Odd had a higher percentage of hits it has ZERO bearing on what will happen next. Why? There is no control variable established. There's nothing to test the significance with. We can only look at what has happened, not probability. No null hypothesis means nothing from a 2x2 table table and a Chi-square test will be valid...no matter how much the degree of freedom or significance level is tweeked.

    One shot stop analysis is too inconsistent to reliably promote any ammunition or caliber over another.



    The only variable that is consistent in every stop is shot placement.

    Everything else is physics. A bullet that expands while penetrating sufficiently destroys more tissue which causes faster bleeding which incapacitates quicker.

    Mass is needed for penetration. The heavier bullet for a given barrel is always preferred.

    Going to a shorter barrel means a lighter bullet if you want expansion, but penetration will suffer. It's a compromise. No free lunch.

    JHP...Most 9mm SD ammo can reliably expand to about .70 and still sufficiently penetrate. Most .45 ACP will expand from .70 to .90 and still penetrate enough. Either way this is perfectly adequate. Why accept a .355 or .45 wound when you can get a .70 or .90 wound? JHP will wound twice as much as a FMJ. (Caveat being some small calibers are so lightweight they cannot surrender any penetration at all, so a JHP would be a reduction in wounding ability.)

    So we are back again...to the only constant in this formula: Shot placement.


    Trying to find the perfect handgun ammunition is an attempt to solve a tactical problem with technology. We are screwed from the get-go here because a handgun is a weak weapon...fighting with one is like batting a world series game with a yardstick...like digging a ditch with a garden spade. All the more reason to use the type of ammo that wounds the most, but that is only the very beginning.

    Putting good gas in a car doesn't win the race.

    The answer to tactical problems is a tactical answer. My advice is to apply more effort towards learning to perform the extraordinarily difficult task of exact shot placement when your heart rate is 190 BPM, auditory and vision exclusion is in effect, fine/complex motor movement has been lost, and critical thinking/cognitive ability has been replaced by reflexive executive responses.

    Bullets do not win fights. Violently executed drills....tactics, techniques, and procedures...wins fights, regardless of what the weapons are or what they're loaded with.
  4. NonPCnraRN

    NonPCnraRN New Member

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    For carry I bought Buffalo Bore +P 230 gr Truncated Cone FMJ at 950 fps. It penetrates like ball (good). But because of a flat meplat it also creates a large wound channel that ball ammo cannot. If Bubba weighs 250 lbs and is wearing winter clothing I feel more confident that the bullet will reach vital organs. A shot into the sternum and lodged or passing through the spine is what I want. In a SD situation it is always a crapshoot. A bad guy may absorb 7 rounds of 45 ACP and still be coming. The same guy may be hit with a 32 that clips a major artery and the guy bleeds out quickly. I go with the biggest bullet that will penetrate the deepest and hope for the best. Plus if a bad guy is using a sheetrock wall for cover I will put rounds through the wall into him, provided a 2x4 stud doesn't get in the way. Of 7 rounds, some will make contact. If the gun is for CCW you may have to penetrate auto glass or sheet metal. You may not neutralize him, but you will get his attention and he will probably decide he should go find another victim.
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2009
  5. 45nut

    45nut New Member

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    What Delta said. Tactics and shot placement are more important than the ammo used.

    FWIW, my Officer's ACP is loaded with Black Talons :eek:, 1 more mag filled with same and two with FMJ.

    I also bought a box of Federal HST's. On the turkey I shot this season, it penetrated the breast and broke the thigh bone, but I had to finish the turkey off with my knife by removing its head. :D