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50 year old- automatically CR debate AGAIN!

Discussion in 'Curio & Relics Forum' started by cointoss2, Mar 3, 2003.

  1. cointoss2

    cointoss2 Guest

    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 825
    (6/17/01 1:56:30 pm)
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    Hey guys, there's a new debate on this old subject again on Tuco's.

    A guy directed them to Cruffler.com, where there is a letter posted from Dec 1997 from the ATF which pretty unambiguously (which is rare for the ATF) says "Any firearm MANUFACTURED 50 or more years ago IS automatically CR," regardless of whether it is on the list.

    I tried to post the letter here, but am technologically illiterate.

    So do we argue again, or what?

    Bob In St Louis
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 532
    (6/17/01 5:36:57 pm)
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    I have a copy of that letter also - it quite clearly states "any firearm 50 years old or older". Thats why I fall back from these debates because the BATF tends to contradict themselves. This letter was from the Dallas office if I remember correctly.
    Support the Dead Party, vote Harry S. Truman for Missouri Senate in 2002!

    jdchase
    Registered User
    Posts: 1
    (6/22/01 9:16:12 am)
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    The letter you are reffering to comes directly from Assistant Director Malone who was and is cheif of the FEA division BATF.

    tuckerd1
    Member
    Posts: 224
    (6/22/01 10:33:18 am)
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    Welcome jd!! Glad to see you here!

    kdubaz
    Moderator
    Posts: 21
    (6/22/01 12:45:06 pm)
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    Howdy, JD -

    Glad to see you. Be sure to stick around and join in with the bunch, when able.
    Keep below the ridgeline!

    LIKTOSHOOT
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 959
    (6/22/01 1:09:06 pm)
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    WELCOME JD!!! LTS

    AntiqueDr
    Moderator
    Posts: 313
    (6/22/01 2:15:16 pm)
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    ATF Publication 5300.11, updated March 2001:

    To be recognized as curios or relics, firearms must fall within ONE of the following categories (emphasis added):

    1) Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof;
    2) blah blah
    3) blah blah

    Seems pretty clear to me.
    Purveyor of Fine Firearms to the Enlightened Few
    www.apaxenterprises.com

    Xracer
    Moderator
    Posts: 444
    (6/22/01 4:50:34 pm)
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    Welcome aboard JD.........hope you'll be a regular here.

    Tac401
    Administrator
    Posts: 1328
    (6/22/01 7:45:31 pm)
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    ezSupporter
    Re: 50 year old- automatically CR debate AGAIN!
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    Welcome Aboard jdchase!

    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 869
    (6/22/01 10:24:40 pm)
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    Hey, did everybody get their new CR list from the ATF? Got mine yesterday...some interesting additions and changes...and it's already outdated since the Star Bs are now CR, they missed this list...

    Someday I just HAVE to get a French M1897 75mm Howitzer, now they are even off the NFA CR list, now considered an antique with NO restrictions for anybody!!!

    The French/US ones post 1899 still are NFA/CR though...

    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 880
    (6/23/01 8:15:19 pm)
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    And one other technical question...

    How do you reconcile the:

    "...Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date..."

    to the list, which states on the second line of listings:

    "All Original military bolt action and semi-automatic rifles manufactured between 1899 and 1946."

    The first would seem to take precedent, making anything original military, SA or BA, manufactured prior to, currently,1951, CR, wouldn't it????? I.e, in a couple of years, the M14s, CETMEs and FALs that are SA only SHOULD be, right????

    Bob In St Louis
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 575
    (6/23/01 10:42:41 pm)
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    Thats the way I read it - ANY firearm manufactured prior to June 23, 1951 is a Curio and Relic as of this date. Period.
    Support the Dead Party, vote Harry S. Truman for Missouri Senate in 2002!

    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 1084
    (7/7/01 10:03:42 am)
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    Did you see the new SOG flyer?

    I always wondered why those Polish Tokarevs weren't CR. On the back page though, they list some having dates of '50 and '51 as CR now. Of course, they are charging more for them, kinda makes me cringe, but at least they are.

    My confusion is now over the military thing...

    RUSSIAN model 44s are CR. SO are any copies, even my 1953 Polish, that is NOT 50+ years old.

    Russian SKS are CR. SO is my Romanian copy, dated 1959.

    Russian Makarovs are CR, SO is my EG, dated 1962. (OK, I'll give you that one, E. Germany is no longer around...) BUT...

    Russian Tokarevs are CR, so WHY aren't POLISH Tokarevs any date CR????



    Bob In St Louis
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 681
    (7/7/01 1:42:22 pm)
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    Or the Bulgarian Makarovs? Some of the later date items got a variance by petition from BATF by the importers. That is why the Destroyer carbines, some of which were manuafactured as late as 1968, are C&R.
    Support the Dead Party, vote Harry S. Truman for Missouri Senate in 2002!

    gun runner john
    Registered User
    Posts: 2
    (7/7/01 4:21:41 pm)
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    It's my understanding that any 50 year old or older gun qualifies, OR any specifically listed gun in the C&R list, even if it's not 50 years old. It seems pretty clear that 50 year old guns are included, I don't know how even the BATF could argue that, since they've sent a letter AND updated the book!

    BTW, there was one other pearl in the new C&R book. It seems that if you decide to give up your C&R license, you don't have to turn your records over to the BATF, since you are not a business, and that regulation was specifically put in place for businesses.


    Alphamale
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 458
    (7/7/01 5:19:59 pm)
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    Welcome to the board GR John
    "Children today are tyrants. They contradict their parents, gobble their food, and tyranize their teachers."--Socrates (470-399 B.C.)

    jdchase
    Member
    Posts: 3
    (7/9/01 10:52:03 am)
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    Thanks for the welcom all.

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