7.62 x 54R questions

Discussion in 'Technical Questions & Information' started by Jloosh, Oct 3, 2007.

  1. Jloosh

    Jloosh New Member

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    i was wondering if a 7.62x54R round could be reloaded with a .30-06 round because the .30-06 is 7.62x53 in metric i believe?
    for example: Shoot the ammo i get with the gun and use the brass from the original round but reload with aa .30-06 bullet.

    I was just wondering because i found that its alot of places are out of the 7.62x54r rounds. I want to shoot the ammo through a m44 mosin-nagant.

    any thoughts

    thanks

    jeremy
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2007
  2. LDBennett

    LDBennett Well-Known Member

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    I just started reloading 7.62 x 54R for my Mosin-Nagant M91/30. Most all the reloading manuals use 308 bullets but I wondered if that was right. It was suggested that the barrel be slugged to determine the bore and grove diameters. As others have noted, most are like mine at .302 in. for the bore and .314 in. diameter for the groves. In a Q&A with Speer they pointed out that ideally you want a bullet diameter to match or at least be close to the grove diameter. An example they used is: you use 308 bullets in a 308 gun because the bore is .300 in. and the grove diameter is .308 in. In our case there is no usable .314 in. bullet so they suggested the .312 in. bullet as used in the 303 British.

    I got all this info after reloading about 50 cartridges with 308 bullets as I though as you did. I haven't shot them yet but others say that when you do shoot them the accuracy is not good and simply upping the bullet to the 303 Brit .312 in. bullets fixes the accuracy problem.

    So the bottom line is use .312 in. diameter 303 British bullets for 7.62 x 54 R for best resutls if your gun is typical. You have to slug it to determine that but from what I have found the majority of the M91/30's are not .308 in. grove diameter. For safety's sake you should probably slug the barrel.

    LDBennett
  3. inplanotx

    inplanotx New Member

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    What LD said!

    IPT
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2007
  4. Jloosh, I've found, and as LDB notes, that bullet accuracy v. bullet diameter in the Mosin Nagants depends largely on the particular rifle you happen to end up with. The 91/30s, 38s, and 44s the Russians produced, especially those produced in wartime, tend to vary fractionally as to bore size. Part of that variation, of course, is dependent on how much actual use the rifle was subjected to. I own several Mosin Nagants and reload for them. I have two wherein the .308 slugs are extremely accurate, and several others that like the .312 slugs much better. Slugging the barrel will certainly help, but I've found that simply putting some experimental rounds down the bore works pretty well too! ;) Keep in mind, these rifles were produced for military use, not civilian marksmanship tournaments, and thus absolute perfection was not a high priority, but speed of production was.
  5. LDBennett

    LDBennett Well-Known Member

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    Pistolenschutze:

    "I have two wherein the .308 slugs are extremely accurate, and several others that like the .312 slugs much better."

    This is why I decide not to take apart the 308 bulleted 7.62 x 54R cartridges that I had already loaded up. Your experience and others are similar and who knows what my gun will like.

    What I wonder is can you seperate the good shooters with 308 bullets and those with 312 bullets into specifice models. I know there are originals, refurbed originals, Finnish (supposedly for 308 bullets), shortened barrel done post war and others I don't even know about. My thinking is that the closer the guns are to original the better the chance they have grove diameters near .314 rather than .308 inches. I don't know if that is true but was just wondering.

    Add to this mystery the fact that some of the literature says the "correct" size bullet is .310 inches, especially data from the immediate post WWII period. We measured some Mil Surplus ammo and some white box Winchester commercial ammo and indeed the bullets are .310 inches (????).

    In reviewing everything I have found out do far I have to go with Speer's assessment that the bullet diameter should match or be close to the grove diameter which puts us back at 303 British bullets at .312 inches since no one makes .314 inch bullets. This the theory of it all. I think shooting is the final test!

    LDBennett
  6. I suspect it would be possible to separate the rifles into groups with enough experimentation and knowledge of Russian manufacturing techniques. I do know that the two I own that eat .308s well are both pre-World War II 91/30s from the Tula factory and apparently saw relatively little wartime service. All of my 38s and 44s definitely prefer the .312 slugs, though accuracy is passably good with .308s.
  7. JLA

    JLA Well-Known Member

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    the M44 you plan to shoot them through is probably gonna be closer to the .314 bore diameter, as most post-war(WW2) rifles and carbines were produced with less haste and a more standardized process, this is not to say that the tolerances dont exist, but they are less apparent than the rifles produced during the war, hornady offers a 174gr. interlock RNSP in .312 dia. sierra offers 150 and 180gr. pro-hunter SP in .311, as well as a 174gr. BTHP matchking... thats about all i know of, unless you want to cast your own, if you decide to do that, you can obtain many different bullet designs and weights at the exact grove diameter of your particular rifle...
  8. polishshooter

    polishshooter Active Member

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    I have heard of "mythical" Mosins that like .308 bullets, but I think most of them are Finnish. Most Finnish Mosin Nagants have a bore diameter of .3082 to .3095, for the Russian 1930s "D" bullets. so they would work better in them...Russian go .310 to .311.

    I tried .308 reloads through my Polish M44 that I scoped, and got 6-7" groups at 100 from a bench. Through my scoped Russian M443 it was even more....

    BUT if you are NOT after MOA accuracy, it's still worth a shot, if only that it's tough to find good surplus ammo that consistently shoots 2-4" at 100, so if you were to "luck out" and get them to shoot say 3 or 4", it would make a decent "plinking" round for typical 25 or 50 round fun shoots, better than at least the cheap Albanian or Russian milsurp, plus you wouldn't have to worry about corrosive primers.
  9. Jloosh

    Jloosh New Member

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    now when i go to get the gun, would a gun shop slug the barrel and tell me what the grove diameter is?

    so a diameter of .314 get the 303 bullets, but if its smaller get the 308?

    and for the brass do i need the 7.62 x 54R, or can i use a different brass cartridge?
  10. LDBennett

    LDBennett Well-Known Member

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    Jloosh:

    Any gunsmith can slug a barrel for you, I would think. He can measure it for you and give you the bore and grove diameter (write it down!).

    Mil Surplus ammo will probably measure .310, at least the stuff we have seen does, as does new Winchester white box ammo. The ideal would be the grove diameter of your barrel (.314 in my case) according to Speer. But no such bullets are available so if you load your own its 303 Brit bullets at .312.

    For brass you have to use the correct 7.62 x 54R, as far as I know (??). I bought 200 rounds of Winchester white box loaded ammo and saved the brass. I am just now getting to reloading it. But Winchester is/was making it for sale in bulk (100 cases per bag). I recently bought 100 primed Winchester cases on a closeout from a wholesaler.

    LDBennett
  11. LDBennett

    LDBennett Well-Known Member

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    Just got a reply back from Hornady and it matches Speer's suggestion of using a .312 inch bullet in my .314 inch grove diameter barrel.

    LDBennett
  12. JLA

    JLA Well-Known Member

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    currently, as far as i know. the only brass mfg. commercially as a reloading component is norma, and its a tad pricey. i use S&B, wolf gold, and hot-shots factory loads and save the brass, its cheap and the brass is of surprisingly good quality.
  13. polishshooter

    polishshooter Active Member

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    Actually, the Winchester stuff is made by Sellior and Bellot in the Czech Republic, you are just paying a premium for the same stuff as s&B.

    I have about 60 Winchester cases that I've reloaded twice with no problems, but I heard in several forums on the 'net that S&B/Winchester cases have annealing issues, and don't last more than 3 or 4 loads..in fact there are several sites that talk about reannealing (?) them to last longer...

    Wolf Gold likewise is made by Prvi Partisan in Serbia...if you can find the Prvi stuff you will pay a couple of bucks less than the same stuff made for Wolf...

    And the Prvi stuff is not half bad, the bullets are .311 boattails, are sold as components (the brass is supposed to be too, but I haven't seen it yet, but the bullets ARE...) And the Prvi factory 150 gr SP ammo gave me my best groups, a little under 1 1/2" at 100 from a rest, but I haven't yet been able to duplicate that with reloads using the same bullet for some reason....the best so far is around 2"...) They also make it in 180 gr boattail too...

    The cases I have are on their third reload and looking fine...

    Not bad for $8.99/20 either...
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