7.65 german pistol

Discussion in 'General Military Arms & History Forum' started by JFBIGUNS, Jul 19, 2010.

  1. JFBIGUNS

    JFBIGUNS New Member

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    seeking advice/information. Have a stainless or nickel 7.65 pistol I believe is German. No markings on the barrel but there is a German eagle stamped on the side of the frame under where the grips mount, just under the hammer. Can anyone tell me what other markings I should look for? not sure if it's a walther or not.
  2. Esteban

    Esteban New Member

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    " A picture is worth 1000 words ."
  3. RJay

    RJay Active Member

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    One note of interest, if it is a Walther, then it will be plainly roll marked as such. The only exceptions are the East German made guns made with out markings.
  4. SSMN

    SSMN Member

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    What's a roll mark?
  5. RJay

    RJay Active Member

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    :rolleyes:Take out the spacing and google it "Rollmark":rolleyes:
  6. SSMN

    SSMN Member

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    What is a rollmark?
  7. Jim K

    Jim K New Member

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    A roll mark is a mark made by a roll stamp. Roll stamps are used to distribute the pressure of a stamp and to make the marking more uniform than could be done with a single stamp. Roll stamps are sometimes erroneously called "roll dies." Almost all stamped markings of any size on guns are made with roll stamps because trying to use a single big stamp would require so much pressure that the part would be distorted. (Today, laser engraving and similar techniques are common, but those are fairly recent.)

    The pictures show a Colt roll stamp, but other companies did it the same way.

    Jim

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  8. RJay

    RJay Active Member

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    While I concur that Walther firearms are not roll marked, they are stamped / engraved/ embossed/engraved by Gerome's, the term roll marking is still acceptable to describe the markings on a firearm as in the days of old when the manufacturing information was roll stamped into the flats or barrels of the gun. I know from your postings you are a self described expert on Walther's so apparently the term hurt your tender feelings when used to described the markings on a German pistol. Most of the board members, while they have specific areas of expert knowledge, have interest in more than one type of firearm. so have a little tolerance when an archaic ( but still accurate and acceptable ) term is used.:)
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2010
  9. Jim K

    Jim K New Member

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    Pre-war and wartime Walthers (except the P.38) appear to be marked with an electric process, but post-war ones are roll stamped. I don't have a current (S&W) Walther, but they probably use the S&W laser marking.

    Jim
  10. SSMN

    SSMN Member

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    Rjay,
    I am not a self described expert nor do I have "tender feelings". I was not sure exactly what a rollstamp was. Thank you for your erudite explanation.

    However with all due respect to your prodigious knowledge, while Colts may have been done with rollstamps, Walthers were not. Left side slide factory data and special markings such as RZM and NSKK were not "stamped/engraved/embossed/engraved". They were acid etched. I will say no more to avoid being accused of having knowldge of some sort.

    With Due Respect,
    David
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2010
  11. Jim K

    Jim K New Member

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    Thanks for that information. I am astonished that a German company in that era would be using such a primitive and slow technique as acid etching, but then the Nazis, for all their talk about the superiority of the German "Kultur" were often behind the times. (The vaunted "blitzkrieg" was in large part horse-drawn.)

    Of course, Germany, even before the Nazi era, did not reward innovation; under the Nazis, total conformity was the name of the game and underpaid factory workers, who could be jailed or executed for wrong thinking, were not likely to suggest any product improvement.

    Jim
  12. SSMN

    SSMN Member

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    I agree, but I'm sure that they had it down to a science which took a few minutes per slide. Apply an adhesive template/stencil, using a sharp point akin to a modern exacto knife, peel away only those areas to be exposed to acid, dab the acid on for a prescribed amount of time and wash off.

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  13. RJay

    RJay Active Member

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    Haaa, perhaps my reply was a little snarly, you seem very knowledge in reference to Walther's and believe me your expertise is welcome. We all learn from from these forums. I knew what you were getting at in reference to the term " Roll Mark " and I admit it did rub me the wrong way. Sorry about that. Back to the original poster, if it is a Walther, then it will be so "Marked" in one manner or the other :D
  14. SSMN

    SSMN Member

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    Some of my other interests:
    1. Winchester Mod. 94 Carbine...1936 Production. .32 Special Lyman factory front sight, blank rear sight and Lyman tang sight. Owned by my father until he died in 1969. Mine since. Shot my first whitetail with this gun in seventh grade. Most receiver bluing now gone.

    2. Winchester Model 1894 Rifle..1900 production. 30-30. Marble factory front sight, blank rear and Marble tang sight. Bought by my grandfather new in 1900. He shot many, many deer and at least one moose with this. I shot my last deer with it in 2002. 80%

    3. Winchester Model 1894 Rifle...1912 production. .25-35. Special order short barrel rifle. 22". Button magazine.Marble combination flip up globe/ivory post front sight Two blade flip up rear sight, Marble tang sight. Deadly on whitetails. 90%

    4. Winchester Model 1894 rifle...1900 production. .32-40. Short barrel special order 22". Tack driver. Lyman combination globe/flip up ivory post front sight, Lyman two blade flip up rear and Lyman tang sight 90%

    5. Winchester Model 1894 Rifle....1895 production. .38-55 takedown. Returned to the factory and refinished, exhibition wood. Factory front and rear sights, Lyman tang sight with target aperture. 100%

    6. Winchester Model 88 .308 Purchased new by me with saved up chore money in ninth grade (1959) Receiver rear sight .

    7. H&R single shot 16 gauge. well used. Purchased new by me in 1957.

    8. Winchester Mod 21 16 gauge. 1936 production, I think. cyl/mod. Custom stocked and used by me for the last 40 years to bring down many grouse, pheaseants, quail. Comes up to shoulder like an extension of me.

    9. Winchester Mod 21...16 gauge. 1950s production Fully engraved and gold inlaid. Two barrel set. imp cyl/mod and mod/full. Exhibition grade wood. custom case.

    10. Browning Citori Lightning. 20 ga. O/U Field grade. Loaner. Beautiful off-cast and super light.

    11. Winchester Mod 77 .22 semi auto. Purchased new by me in 1958. Weaver scope.

    12. Winchester Mod 70 Featherweight. .30-06. Leupold lightweight 2.5-8 power scope. My mountain rifle. Last fired ten years ago. Brought down a nice bull Elk at 300 yards above Steamboat Springs, Co.

    13. Emil Kerner custom double 16 gauge five lbs. Hammer Gun. Krupp steel barrels. Fully engraved. made in 1888 and sent home by an uncle who was a member of the 11th Armored Div. The hammers are not a handicap at all. Cock them both when the dog goes on point an you're good to go.

    14. Winchester Mod. 62-A 1950s production .22 Hammer pump.

    15. Smith & Wesson Combat Magnum .357 magnum. Red front, white outline rear, target trigger.

    16. Smith & Wesson stainless steel .22 mod?

    17. Smith &Wesson Bodyguard fully engraved .38 special mod?

    18. Colt Mod 1911. Cal Super .38. Serial #14000 95%

    19. CAR 15 .223 with Colt ranging telescope.

    20. Ruger Stainless Steel Mini-14 .223

    That's most of them. Sorry that I don't recall some model numbers. I don't think anyone who reads this will much care enough to make me dig into the vault.

    I titled this as other interests, so it does not include PPKs, PPs, Broomhandles, Lugers (American Eagles), P38s, etc.
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2010
  15. Jim K

    Jim K New Member

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    FWIW, the normal way of doing production acid etching is to dip the object to be etched into, or coat it with, a "resist", usually wax, though other substances can be used. The resist forms a thin coating on the object. Then a stamp (it can be rubber or soft metal, since it doesn't need to be hard) is pressed into the resist, displacing the areas to be etched. Acid is then applied, eating at the areas not protected by the resist. No, it doesn't take very long and looking at that RZM mark, I agree that is the way it was done. Still, in that era, it was rather an obsolete technique in mass production.

    Jim
  16. Contenderizer

    Contenderizer New Member

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    And I thought a roll mark was the impression left behind after my wife gets off the couch.

    SSMN,
    RE: #10, I didn't know a Citori could be had with a bent stock. Was it done after the sale?
    RE: #18, Great feature article on the Super 38 in this month's American Rifleman.
  17. SSMN

    SSMN Member

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    Contenderizer,

    I had to go the the vault get the Browning out and assemble it. I had no doubt that it was "cast off" (for a right hand shooter, if for a left hand shooter, referred to as "cast on"), but I wanted to take a good look at exactly where the bend takes place. I have had several of these as well as Belgian made Brownings and they are all the same. Mine (Citoris and the Belgians) are all thirty or so years old, but I have no reason to doubt that new ones (if presently made) would be any different.

    The cast off is definitely there and as pronounced as any I have ever shouldered. My son shot it on Pheasant hunts for several years and was shocked one day when I showed him how to view the cast. He was so surprised that he no longer wanted shoot it, choosing my Ruger Red Label 20 ga. engraved and gold inlaid receiver instead on hunts. (Forgot to mention that one). In any case, the cast is clearly built into the receiver. The stock is straight as an arrow. Any stock you put on the gun would make no difference the cast would still be there.

    RE the Super .38...Yes, good article. I agree with their opinions. A pleasure to shoot (Colt Govt Mod 1911 A-1) Gentle recoil, more of a push than harsh recoil, tremendous velocity and power and extremely accurate. I have always loved shooting it compared the kick and blast of my Detonics VI .45 Acp. Sorry, another vault resident that I forgot to mention.
    David
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2010
  18. Jim K

    Jim K New Member

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    The article did go along with one common belief that is actually an error. The writer indicated that the .38 Super (and .38 ACP) were intended to be supported (headspaced, if you want) on the case mouth. That isn't true. Those early Browning cartridges are all intended to support on the rim, which is why it is there.

    Browning started his auto pistol experiments with .32 S&W and .38 S&W revolver cartridges. He soon encountered the problems of feeding rimmed cases from a magazine and ended up cutting down the rim to the minimum to get reliable feeding. He then used the same system in the .25 ACP and the 9mm Browning Long.

    Meanwhile, in Germany, Georg Luger had a perfectly good 7.65mm pistol, firing a bottleneck cartridge, headspaced on the shoulder like the 8x57 rifle cartridge. But the German army wanted a 9mm. Now Luger had no desire to redesign the whole pistol, but making a straight case from the 7.65 Parabellum would create a round over 9mm. Luger first tried making the case a bottleneck, but the shoulder was too small to support the round, so he ended up using a tapered case with the case mouth for support.

    In 1904, the U.S. army obtained some Luger pistols for testing, and Browning either saw or heard of the idea of supporting a case on its mouth. Bingo! But Browning went Luger one better and made the .380 ACP and .45 ACP cases straight.

    Jim
  19. Contenderizer

    Contenderizer New Member

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    Jim, Thank you for the info on the 38 Super. I have never reloaded same, but, I did wonder why the cartridge would head-space on the case (as described in the AR article) when it had such a wonderful rim. Not the first time AR has published and error.

    David, If you have a Browning that is cast at the receiver, you have a one of a kind. I DO have a Marlin 336 cast at the receiver, but that is only because the horse I was riding decided to roll over. The gun no longer functions.

    Correct me if I am wrong, but all of the shotguns (that I am familiar with) are bent at the wrist of the butt-stock. I don't doubt you that the gun is cast, but take another look. The best method is to assemble the gun, then turn it over. Now, look down the length of the gun with the muzzles closest to your eyes. The cast, if any, should be seen at the wrist.

    FYI:. According to Browning, they ship all guns with "neutral" (no) cast. This is their current policy, but not necessarily relative to older guns.

    Greg
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2010
  20. SSMN

    SSMN Member

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    Re: Castoff Browning

    Tender,
    Ummm....You are wrong....Way wrong.
    I hope these pics will do it for you. If not, I will try again.
    It's a little hard to get the perspective just right. As you see the stock is straight as an arrow. No bend, no cast, no nothing, nada, bupkis, . The easiest way to check for cast is to pivot the gun at the hinge pin so the barrels drop from view. Sight straight down the stock from the butt. Then slowly raise the barrels by pivoting at the hinge pin until the barrels come into view. If the gun is cast off, the barrels will point well to the right. As I said in an earlier post, I have had six of these, three were Belgian made Lightnings and the other three were exactly like this. Cast off without a doubt.....All of them.

    The fantastic thing is that I now have a one of a kind unique shotgun which will sell for a fabulous amount. I will need you to confirm this in writing for me if you don't mind for a future buyer. Not a mark on it. (Can't hardly tell where my pick-em-up ran over it).

    I will be listing it at auction with reserve set at a million. Sound about right? I still know where two of the others are. One was a gift to my brother in Minnesota and another a gift for a friend. The Citoris were all bought by me at Jaqua's in Findlay, Ohio in the 80's. Who cares about the economy and the stock market. My retirement is set. (Now if I can only get those other two million dollar guns back for the $750 each that I paid.)

    Regards,
    Steve

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    Last edited: Jul 28, 2010
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