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8mm Ammo concerns AP?

7K views 30 replies 10 participants last post by  Crpdeth 
#1 ·
I just bought a beautiful Yugo 48A 8mm rifle. The guy I bought it from gave me some ammo to go with it. I find out, after taking apart a bullet, that it has a steel core. Is this stuff AP or what is the deal with it having a steel core? I have had ammo that had steel jackets that were copper washed, but never actual steel core. Any help would be great.
 
#3 ·
That is Common WWII and shortly after Milsurp ammo. I have about 800 rounds dating from 1947 and earlier and about half has a steel core. As soon as I get home tomorrow I will try and get some pics up of both the headstamps and a few pulled bullets, I got some I need to pull any way due to corrosion or case splitting. I have a mixed lot of Russian, Yugo, and very little German and I will try and get an example of them all. I have found in my lot that both the Russian and Yugo ammo are mixed lead and steal and most of the Russian steal core bullets have a 1941 on the headstamp? Not shure why. It could be AP but it is prolly most likely supply problems. I will get those pics up as soon as possible.
 
#4 ·
Steel cores have two or more advantages - during war time - steel is generally more plentiful than lead; steel can be cast to keep bullets concentric; bullets can be produced with same over all, original length, while being lighter and have higher velocity. Steel core also tends to penetrate heavier fabrics and other materials - as it doesn't flatten out. Yellow or gray tip? probably steel core - check with a magnet.
 
#6 ·
It's almost the same... The more carbon the better...... Makes it harder....

The penetration of an AP bullet comes from its hardness (primarily), as well as density and shape. Most of them are steel (the harder-tempered, the better). When a normal lead bullet hits armor it deforms, absording its own kinetic energy in the process. The energy required to deform the steel core of an AP bullet is much higher than lead, so while the lead outer layer will "splat," the core will continue unchanged, forcing the armor to deform. Density aids penetration, as it gives the penetrator more kinetic energy, assuming equal velocities. A small frontal area also aids penetration by concentrating energy on a small point.

Tungsten has also been used for AP cores, as has uranium (though uranium is mainly used for its density).

I believe that lower mass/higher velocity is better for penetration.

The penetrator cores are located in different places in different bullets. The best is at the rear, as this allows the lead front of the bullet to keep the core in alignment as it enters the armor.

Riddick
 
#7 · (Edited)
The secret to an AP bullet is really heat, not just the hardness of the penetrator (core). When a bullet hits something that stops it abruptly, all its kinetic energy is transmormed instantly into heat. A lead bullet, like a .22, simply melts. If the bullet is jacketed and the target is a steel plate, that heat softens or melts that portion the bullet contacts and of course the bullet as well. But if the bullet has a hard core, that does not melt, and has enough energy to penetrate the softened steel.

If you have ever fired high velocity bullets at steel plate (I hope it was done with care) you will have seen the craters and "splash" effect that result from the steel melting. At the Aberdeen museum there is (or was) a German tank turret with a dozen American AP bullet cores stuck in it. The surface melted enough to allow partial penetration, but the massive armor dissipated the heat long before the cores could even begin to pentrate more than 1/4 inch or so.

While a material like tungsten carbiide is ideal for a core, in WWII, it was far too valuable for machine tools to shoot it in rifles, so most AP of that era had hardened carbon steel penetrators. In WWII and Korea, AP was the normal combat issue because it could penetrate light armor and vehicles where ball would often fail to penetrate, the entire bullet simply melting or spattering.

Jim
 
#8 · (Edited)
The secret to an AP bullet is really heat, not just the hardness of the penetrator (core). When a bullet hits something that stops it abruptly, all its kinetic energy is transmormed instantly into heat. A lead bullet, like a .22, simply melts. If the bullet is jacketed and the target is a steel plate, that heat softens or melts that portion the bullet contacts and of course the bullet as well. But if the bullet has a hard core, that does not melt, and has enough energy to penetrate the softened steel.

If you have ever fired high velocity bullets at steel plate (I hope it was done with care) you will have seen the craters and "splash" effect that result from the steel melting. At the Aberdeen museum there is (or was) a German tank turret with a dozen American AP bullet cores stuck in it. The surface melted enough to allow partial penetration, but the massive armor dissipated the heat long before the cores could even begin to pentrate more than 1/4 inch or so.

While a material like tungsten carbiide is ideal for a core, in WWII, it was far too valuable for machine tools to shoot it in rifles, so most AP of that era had hardened carbon steel penetrators. In WWII and Korea, AP was the normal combat issue because it could penetrate light armor and vehicles where ball would often fail to penetrate, the entire bullet simply melting or spattering.

Jim
It's is only a small part of it...Plus It don't stop??.. But he asked why steel was in his ammo... Not the entire process of how armor piercing ammunition pierces armor.....Pay attention.... Hear that in school a lot? :eek:

That's the answer I gave him.... :eek:

Plus if it stops? How does it penetrate?........ What penatrates then??

It's hardness (core) is so it don't shatter on impact... if it didn't? It would splat/or shatter like lead/soft steel does?
Then what's the point?

So the first rule is... It needs to be hard enough not to shatter..or deform.. If it shatters/deforms? It's not a AP round.....

Where do you get any heat from if it shatters??

Riddick
 
#9 ·
I dunno Riddick, I kinda liked Jim's answer, as well as yours, there is no such thing as TOO much information, really. The discussion generated by a question MAY be more than the person was asking, but if it adds to everyone's general knowledge and may answer somebody ELSE'S question who's reading along but hasn't asked serves a purpose as well...

And yes, about the heat, a "penetrating" AP round does not kill inside the tank simply by penetrating the armor and then hitting something or richocheting around inside...the molten steel of the ARMOR it carries through with it that splatters inside the Turret or hull that was HEATED by the kinetic energy if the penetrator punching through is what causes the most damage to the crew, starts secondary fires, and brews up the ammo or fuel inside....and actually is what usually knocks out the tank.
 
#10 · (Edited)
I dunno Riddick, I kinda liked Jim's answer, as well as yours, there is no such thing as TOO much information, really. The discussion generated by a question MAY be more than the person was asking, but if it adds to everyone's general knowledge and may answer somebody ELSE'S question who's reading along but hasn't asked serves a purpose as well...

And yes, about the heat, a "penetrating" AP round does not kill inside the tank simply by penetrating the armor and then hitting something or richocheting around inside...the molten steel of the ARMOR it carries through with it that splatters inside the Turret or hull that was HEATED by the kinetic energy if the penetrator punching through is what causes the most damage to the crew, starts secondary fires, and brews up the ammo or fuel inside....and actually is what usually knocks out the tank.
Yea I know all that also.... Did you look at the first question posted?? It's not what he asked... So yes you can overload a answer...

But as you don't understand also... Is you can't get heat from kinetic energy if the penetrater shatters or deforms on impact.... So the most important part of a AP round? Is how hard the core is.... Talking to you is like talking with a 5 year old....

Heat... being the end part of the equation..... is what you get.... If the round don't shatter..... So the molten steel of the ARMOR it carries through with it that splatters inside the Turret or hull that was HEATED by the kinetic energy if the penetrator punching through is what causes the most damage to the crew... happens if it don't shatter on impact.... got it? So how hard the core is... Is the most important part of AP ammo.... Without it... You don't get the results you talk about....

Lets learn a little history..... On how they where invented...... :eek: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armor-piercing_shot_and_shell

History....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armor-piercing_shot_and_shell
An armor-piercing shell must withstand the shock of punching through armor plating. Shells designed for this purpose have a greatly strengthened case with a specially hardened and shaped nose, (and a much smaller bursting charge). got that?.. because they explode after punching through armor..... :eek:

Riddick
 
#11 ·
Thanks for the info. This stuff is made in the 70's and I think it is Romanian, also the tip of the bullet is just plain copper. Will this stuff go through like it is an AP round or are they not the same thing?
Adam, if Romanian, headstamp will have a 2 digit date, and 22 for Romania. Green lacquer steel case, with red lacquer bullet and primer sealer.
The jacket is "bi-metal", copper and soft steel, and a mild steel core. It's not AP, but will punch holes in pretty thick plate. When it hits something hard, that bi-metal jacket will fragment and burn, semi visible in daylight, like red road flares at night. Be careful shooting around rocks and dry grass, they will cause a fire!
 
#12 ·
Just for the record I havent forgot to post them pics yet. I am planning on starting my own thread on some WWII era ad ealier steel core 8mm ammo, I just aint made it home yet.
 
#13 ·
Hi, Riddick,

Sorry you didn't understand and I will try to explain it better. The bullet does not stop all at once; nothing compressible does. If a car hits a stone wall, it does not stop, all at once. Its front stops, then its hood crumples, then the passenger compartment crushes, and so on. When the bullet strikes the armor, its front end stops and its energy is transformed into heat. Smarter folks than I have stated that energy cannot be either created or destroyed, only changed into other forms of energy, and that is what happens here.

The armor plate becomes hot enough that it melts, along with the jacket and lead envelope surrounding the core as it moves forward. But the core is hard enough and also is back from the intitial point of impact enough that it does not melt. But it still has enough momentum to pentrate through or into the softened steel armor plate.

The point is that an AP bullet does not penetrate by momentum alone, as it would if it were piercing, say, a thin can. For the energy dump to occur, there must be enough resistance that the bullet's kinetic energy becomes heat. The whole thing happens in a tiny fraction of a second, but it does happen.

That is why I asked if anyone had fired at thick steel plate. Even with ordinary bullets, a steel plate will show a cratering and "splash" signs, like rolled up "waves" of steel that show the steel was actually molten for an instant.

Jim
 
#14 · (Edited)
Hi, Riddick,

Sorry you didn't understand and I will try to explain it better. The bullet does not stop all at once; nothing compressible does. If a car hits a stone wall, it does not stop, all at once. Its front stops, then its hood crumples, then the passenger compartment crushes, and so on. When the bullet strikes the armor, its front end stops and its energy is transformed into heat. Smarter folks than I have stated that energy cannot be either created or destroyed, only changed into other forms of energy, and that is what happens here.

The armor plate becomes hot enough that it melts, along with the jacket and lead envelope surrounding the core as it moves forward. But the core is hard enough and also is back from the intitial point of impact enough that it does not melt. But it still has enough momentum to pentrate through or into the softened steel armor plate.

The point is that an AP bullet does not penetrate by momentum alone, as it would if it were piercing, say, a thin can. For the energy dump to occur, there must be enough resistance that the bullet's kinetic energy becomes heat. The whole thing happens in a tiny fraction of a second, but it does happen.

That is why I asked if anyone had fired at thick steel plate. Even with ordinary bullets, a steel plate will show a cratering and "splash" signs, like rolled up "waves" of steel that show the steel was actually molten for an instant.

Jim
No I understand your clueless..I know how it works.....As I said before. You didn't answer the question he posted about... Why it's in his ammo?. Was his AP ammo?..... Not how it works to go through armor....

Riddick
 
#15 ·
Adam, if Romanian, headstamp will have a 2 digit date, and 22 for Romania. Green lacquer steel case, with red lacquer bullet and primer sealer.
The jacket is "bi-metal", copper and soft steel, and a mild steel core. It's not AP, but will punch holes in pretty thick plate. When it hits something hard, that bi-metal jacket will fragment and burn, semi visible in daylight, like red road flares at night. Be careful shooting around rocks and dry grass, they will cause a fire!
THanks Trapp55,
Is that 22 a code for the country? Do all east bloc countries have numbers like that? After what you have said, yes it is Romanian.
 
#17 ·
Riddick, I am SO sorry you are so much SMARTER than any of us plebians here, so much so that we annoy you so much, but in any event we will welcome you and assure you we feel blessed by your mere presence.
 
#18 · (Edited)
Riddick, I am SO sorry you are so much SMARTER than any of us plebians here, so much so that we annoy you so much, but in any event we will welcome you and assure you we feel blessed by your mere presence.
Don't feel sorry for being low class... You fill it well...... for stepping into a conversation your not involved in... :eek:

Never said anything about me being smarter... I just answered the question he asked... "Why is steel in my ammo?"/ "Is it like AP ammo?"

Not the question I THINK he asked.. "How does AP ammo penetrate?"

How does that answer his question? Einstein :eek:
Don't start nothing.... Won't be nothing....

Thanks or the conversation..... I'm done talking on this subject... Post all you want... To feel better.....
 
#19 · (Edited)
Don't feel sorry for being low class... You fill it well......

How does that answer his question? Einstein :eek:
Don't start nothing.... Won't be nothing....

Thanks or the conversation..... I'm done talking on this subject... Post all you want... To feel better.....
How did we ever survive 10 years without you?

You know, people can get this kind of crap elsewhere, we've been successful BECAUSE we have kept it off here for 10 years as well.

And by the way, in case you don't remember, YOU started the discussion on Armor Piercing properties, Riddick, and how it supposedly happens. Everything SINCE that has been "off topic" was a result of what YOU first posted.
 
#20 · (Edited)
How did we ever survive 10 years without you?

You know, people can get this kind of crap elsewhere, we've been successful BECAUSE we have kept it off here for 10 years as well.

And by the way, in case you don't remember, YOU started the discussion on Armor Piercing properties, Riddick, and how it supposedly happens. Everything SINCE that has been "off topic" was a result of what YOU first posted.
I think you better read post #5 again... Then look what I said in reply in #6.... Still feel smart?

Wow who's the pot?.... Calling the kettle black?

Rant much when things don't go your way? You just DID... What you complained about? Well done my little Einstein plebian.....

Do you feel better and more important now? It's called admitting your wrong....or integrity... Get some one day...

Riddick
 
#21 ·
How do we get Rid of a *Edited by Admin*?
 
#23 ·
THanks Trapp55,
Is that 22 a code for the country? Do all east bloc countries have numbers like that? After what you have said, yes it is Romanian.
Yes and almost all. Romanian is probably the best of the 8mm milsurp ammo. It's the lowest pressure, and usually the most accurate. Leaves a black oily sooty film in the gun, and smells like warmed over hell when you shoot it. It's Berdan primed, and it is corrosive, so clean accordingly.
 
#25 · (Edited)
Thanks, Crp....;) I tried to play peacemaker at first, then tried to shame him into a little civility, but sometimes it doesn't work for some people. Disagreements and arguments with substance are one thing, heck, God knows I have gotten the passions flying a time or two in my life here;), but being disagreeable is something else.
 
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