A really big 1911 question

Discussion in 'The 1911 Forum' started by 44alltheway, Oct 30, 2009.

  1. 44alltheway

    44alltheway New Member

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    Now before I start let me say I like 1911s! I really like big bullets and I think the 44 mag is the best but a 45 auto is damn good.
    Everything in all the guns magazines says how great the 1911 is. Everybody knows how great the 45 auto round is.
    So my question is this Why doesnt any police or army have it as a sidearm? We know its a good gun so how come nobody uses it on the job?
  2. jacksonco

    jacksonco New Member

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    The US did away with them to standardize ammunition with NATO. Almost all of the NATO countries were using 9mm parabelem in their side arms so the US switched over in the mid 80's to the smaller cartridge.
  3. johnlives4christ

    johnlives4christ Former Guest

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    there are several reasons for the 1911 not being used as a duty or military weapon. the first reason is as police officers, they dont get to choose the weapon they carry, normally the person that does choose sets behind a desk.

    the second reason is that 1911's are normally more expensive than lets say a Glock

    and the third reason is that it takes some training to use a weapon. the training of the use of a glock is easier and cheaper than with a 1911. that includes use and maintenance.

    the forth reason is maintenance. proper maintenance is easier on a glock than a 1911. it's faster and it's less involved. and a 1911 needs to be adjusted in order to work properly, especially the extractor. it's a lot easier to issue glocks and not worry about it, than it is to have 2 or 3 1911's out of a hundred that needs to be tweaked.
  4. glocknut

    glocknut New Member

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    I think the reason the 45acp is not used is because the populace has become so effeminate that large calibers are just too much for these Noobs that join a police force without having any childhood experience with guns... or are pursuing a carrer in L.E. because of affirmative action...ie women.

    Another factor is the government. They're tightwads when it comes to spending on things that actually have value such as larger more expensive ammo. The militaries push for a smaller caliber rifle round was partly due to the desire to save money on ammo. And again... many were not able to shoot the more powerfull...or should i say "effective" calibers very well...

    mike
    gn
  5. Alpo

    Alpo Well-Known Member

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    I was with you all the way to there.

    Lemme see now. Sistima. Ballester Molina. Series 70 Gold Cup. Series 80 1991 Compact. Other Series 70 Gold Cup. 1918 Reissue. Springfield 1911. Other Springfield 1911. Auto Ordnance Pit Bull. Ace. Kimber Pro CDP. Ain't never "adjusted" anything on any of 'em. They all worked from the first time I pulled the trigger. If they didn't work I replaced the magazine with a Chip McCormick, and they started working again. Some needed to be "shot in", but none of them ever needed any tweaking.

    You been listening to too many Glockophiles.
  6. JLA

    JLA Well-Known Member

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    G1N1 makes a good point. Simply put, the .45 didnt conform to NATO specs, and the 9MM was easier to 'control' so in the eyes of the 'war dept' it was a win win situation and LE and private defence services swiftly followed suit. Dont be fooled... the .45 does still have a loyal following even in the armed forces. Certain seal teams carry the USP .45 and as far as I know LA SWAT does too, Kimbers...
  7. johnlives4christ

    johnlives4christ Former Guest

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    i guess i wasn't making a clear thought at that time i didnt mean that a 1911 out of the box needs adjustment, what i meant was a 1911 extractor if not adjusted properly from the factory will need adjustment, and if replaced the replacement has to be adjusted properly. if it has too much or too little tension it can cause malfuntions. but the extractor on a glock or on a 1911 with external extractor doesnt have to be adjusted any particular way, as long as it has a hook that securely grabs the rim if the cartridge.

    i guess what i was trying to say is that it could be a factor in choosing a weapon if any specific knowledge about maintaining that weapon or repairing that weapon is needed to be learned, either by each individual or an armorer.

    heck i dont even know what i meant now
  8. JUNKKING

    JUNKKING Active Member

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    Maybe I'm a lucky guy, But every gun I have ever bought worked fine right out of the box. No break in rounds as many claim all guns need. They are built to run smooth from the factory. What if some person that never owned a auto loader or any gun for that matter bought one for home defense, Took it home and loaded it just in case someone was to break in their home. I believe if they ever needed that gun it should work 1st time every time.

    Also as mentioned above, A 45 is alot of unnecessary force not needed in normal every day police patrol. In the event of a real shoot out their would be enough 9mm flying from all of the backup the police call for that should do the job. If it is a stand off situation the swat team is called in immediately.

    Police are trained to double tap if needing to use their side arm, In a stressful situation the 9mm is a quicker recovery for that second round for the average person. And as Glocknut said NATO has something to do with it. Why would some towns feel the need to use a 45 when the rest of the world is using 9mm. Maybe it has to do with political correctness.

    My local PD uses 9mm but not Glock. They are using S&W M and P's. JMO, JUNK
  9. woolleyworm

    woolleyworm Active Member

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    Texas Rangers are permitted to carry any sidearms they chose as long as they can qualify on a regular basis. Most favor the department issue .357 cal. Sig Sauer, or .45 cal. Colt 1911's. There is at least one force that actually sees the "cost savings" in skimping on quality and stopping power!
    I know several LEO's that would take a 1911 or a Sig P220 over their dept issues anyday! Darn beancounters are worthless.
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2010
  10. LDBennett

    LDBennett Well-Known Member

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    While several possible reasons the 1911 is not chosen for police or military work have been expressed above, I think the real reason is the trigger. Its a single action trigger. To get the first shot off when the hammer is down you have to manually cock the hammer or cock the hammer before hand and rely on the safety to hold it day and night, maybe forever. Then you have to remember to take the safety off. That's the extra training required.

    But todays COP may not be a gun fanatic and may only practice when he or she has to. While most may keep their gun handling skill up only one has to fail to do so and the city or government agency may have a big problem when the adrenalin kicks in on the COP with little practice. It's a matter of record that a COP involved in a shooting usually can't even remember how many shots he took. How's he going to remember under duress the gun handling skill required with a single action trigger if he doesn't practice?

    COP's are the main reason for Double Action Only or self cocking double action triggers on defense guns. Nice triggers are not necessary, only triggers that take a concerted effort to pull and that produce a shot with every pull of the trigger. Government agencies want COP guns on the street that are only fired when absolutely necessary, not by mistake or not at all when the drill is forgotten in a bad situation. It's about Liability, I would guess.

    Still another factor is that double action revolvers were the duty gun for decades and old officers who learned and trained on them are more easily converted to a self cocker like a Glock or a double action pistol.

    Still another reason is gun size. 1911's are big guns. Little lady COP's with small hands MAY have a problem using such a big heavy gun in a incident where life and death gun use is required. Today women become COP's in the field. They don't get to choose only calls where no violence is required. It can happen on any call. They need protection they can handle and the smaller lighter guns are usually necessary for them.

    LDBennett
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2009
  11. WildcatFan

    WildcatFan New Member

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    Great question and follow-ups. I just love this forum.
  12. johnlives4christ

    johnlives4christ Former Guest

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    ldbennet. good post, i must make the argument though that the smith and wesson 4006 is neither small nor light, but has been a widely used duty weapon for police. i dont think, atleast at that time, they really took into consideration if a smaller framed, smaller handed person could wield the weapon effectively.
  13. williamd

    williamd New Member

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    Am fortunate to have, well a few, 45 ACPs. Only glitch has been a Kimber Custon Poly that was kitchen-smithed. Solved that, but it will never be my fav. That is reserved for Series 70 GC, or S-A Champion Fully Loaded, or S-A TRP, or Colt Tank Officers (cause it's unusual), or ... maybe my SW M22 wheelie! I guess all are my very favorites!
  14. LurpyGeek

    LurpyGeek New Member

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    The main reasons that the bulk of the U.S. military went away from the .45 ACP / 1911 combo are to conform to NATO standard and greater magazine capacity (Shoot a guy in the head with two rounds of .45, then shoot another guy in the head with two rounds of 9mm. Their reactions will likely be unanimous. Sorry for the gruesome illustration.)

    ...oh, and politics. :D
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2009
  15. Jay

    Jay New Member

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    Sorry, if a shooter has to "remember" to take a safety off, he/she shouldn't be carrying that particular firearm. Flicking that safety off is to me like drawing my next breath..... I don't ever have to think about it.... they call it "fine muscle memory"... I own multiple 1911 handguns, by several different makers. NONE of them have EVER had ANY malfunction that was caused by the gun. For the record..... I'm not anti-Glock, they simply feel really uncomfortable in my hands.

    YMMV
  16. LDBennett

    LDBennett Well-Known Member

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    Jay:

    Today's COP is not the dedicated shooter like you or me. Its a job to most of them. For most COPs they practice mostly because they have to. Cities feel, and reasonably so, that the gun must be fool proof. That is, it shouldn't be easily set off in the heat of "battle", and should not require thinking excessively to use. Having even one COP on the force that has problems with gun handling, whether it be because the gun is too big for the hand or because they fail to absorb training or because they don't practice enough, is a millions of dollars liability to that city. Fool proof guns are a must and a Glock and some of the double action only guns in the smaller frames fit the bill.

    Such requirements most certainly don't apply to us, as avid shooters. But I'll admit that I have so many different guns with their controls in completely different places that my home defense gun is loaded with a loaded magazine but with the chamber empty. I don't need any gun mistakes in handling the gun. Sure, I'll have to rack the gun to use it but they all rack the same. I never use safeties at the range or ever because the gun is being shot or the chamber is empty. Never anything else. That works for me.

    LDBennett
  17. 44alltheway

    44alltheway New Member

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    Thanks for all the answers! I always thought it was mostly money. A 1911 is awesome but even a stock 1911 is like 100 dollars more than a regular Glock. But thats still dumb because a 1911 will last forever and a plastic gun cant take the same beating.
    Dont flame me Glock fans! :D
  18. Insulation Tim

    Insulation Tim Active Member

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    Don't worry, I think that GlockNut is the only fan :D and he only responds to really weird stuff.
  19. rentalguy1

    rentalguy1 Former Guest

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    Just wanted to drop in that there is a "segment" of the US Army that still uses 1911's as their duty sidearm.
  20. 40CalJoe

    40CalJoe New Member

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    1911's have their place. They are fine weapons. But please, just because a gun is made out of metal vs polymer, does not mean the polymer gun is less likely to last. I doubt any 1911 could sustain the torture test this Glock 21 was put through and still work. Right now, my 1911 is at Springfield after 250 rounds. All three of my Glocks have about 5000 rounds each on them and have never had anything done to them except cleaning.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ygcfp40RTKs

    http://www.theprepared.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=90
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