A recent confrontation . . .

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Pistolenschutze, Nov 4, 2006.

  1. I've noticed that myself, Marlin. As I think you realize from my comments, the law occupied a good deal of my working life, at least within the narrow confines of contracts, real property, trust, and probate matters. Several times I was offered the opportunity to study the law formally for the JD and the bar exam, but, after much thought, I declined on each occasion. By the time that occurred I had been working in such close proximity with lawyers for such a long period that I had become rather cynical about the whole legal process. It seemed to me then--and it still does to some extent today--that American jurisprudence had become nothing more than a contest between personalities and an exercise in showmanship instead of an honest effort to find the truth and render fair judgment. On the other side of that coin, however, I did have the golden opportunity to work with some truly fine legal minds--good, honest men whose focus was on truth. Alas, there were far too few of them.
  2. Huck Finn

    Huck Finn Member

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    Now Mike, some might construe that statement as offensive. Not me, because I'm one of those that can and do. But some might.:D
  3. I "could and did" for 30 years before I realized that the race track of life was a maze for mindless mice looking for a cheese that wasn't really there, but finding lots of ulcers and coronaries along the road.
  4. LDBennett

    LDBennett Active Member

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    Pistolenschutze:

    I suggest as no real friendship exists to just avoid this liberal couple. Nothing you say will change their mind, not even true facts. If they persist in unwarranted attacks on you even when you avoid talking with them beyond "HI", suggest to them that if they do not stop spouting their liberal garbage at you that you will file a formal complaint against them. That should stop them if they want to keep their jobs. They offered unsolicitied political views not appreciated by you and point that out to them and mention to them that it will be brought to the attention of the management if they persist. In short get them to stop talking at you by absence or threat of review by their management. I suspect avoiding them to be the best approach. Engaging them will be fruitless and a total frustration. It is not worth it for people you don't even really know or care about.

    It has been my experience that individuals so far from my point of view can never be moved closer towards my view no matter the facts presented. It would be a total waste to try. The world is full of leaders and followers. These two are followers and are simply spouting off what errant leaders put in their mouths. Obviously no amount of discussion of the facts will change their minds since they choose to follow their leader and not you.

    LDBennett
  5. LurpyGeek

    LurpyGeek New Member

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    For what it's worth from the other side...

    I myself am a college student and have attended two universities. While the schools I've attended are generally seen as some of the more conservative institutions in the nation, they are still havens for liberal thought.

    In one particular class (a required environment appreciation course) the teacher was as liberal as they come. He spent the entire first day of class talking about why he hated the Bush administration. Mulitple times during the semester, he would get so fervent in his liberality and environmentalism that I wondered if he was going to start encouraging students to strap explosives to themselves and go demolish construction equipment.

    Sadly, most of the class (nearly 200 students) would simply go along with him and believe anything he said without questioning. I simply couldn't stand for many of the things he said. I found that my best course of action was to calmly pose simple and direct questions to him such as xxxxxxl has suggested above. I even found myself wondering about 'facts' that he had stated in passing during class and took time to research them. On many of these 'facts' I found him to be either uninformed, misinformed, or outright lying. Many times when I would point these things out to him, he would either deny the information that I had researched or continue to hold to his previous statements. I didn't really worry about it after that though. As long as I had made my point and perhaps helped some of the others in the class see which end of the horse was talking, I couldn't help it if he continued in his line of thought and I didn't really care.
  6. I ran into that sort of thing during my university days as well, Lurpy. I recall one incident in a required sociology class many years ago when I got into it with the "learned" professor on the issue of capital punishment. He was, of course, pushing the rather inane idea that capital punishment is never justified under any circumstances because it has no effect in deterence. We were, at the time, discussing a particularly gruesome case of pedofilia and murder. I responded with the simple question, "How the hell do you know?" I then went on to point out that logically it is not possible to know how many may have been deterred because, by definition, those who were never committed capital crimes. I further pointed out that there was only one absolute certainty, the b*st*rd in that case never killed any more little girls, an outcome I found quite acceptable. This, of course, enraged him no end. His only response was to sputter a good bit, then ask me if I had ever seen the "horrible" (his word) act of execution. While I realized his question had no logical relevance and I could have called him on that, I instead responded, "yes I have." This was, of course, not the response he thought he would get, which pi**ed him off even more. I explained further that in Vietnam I had indeed seen executions on more than one occasion, usually after some VC "freedom fighter" had helped massacre a village full of women and children and gotten himself caught by South Vietnamese troops. It brought the house down, to say the least. Needless to say, I never took another course from this particular idiot. :D
  7. LurpyGeek

    LurpyGeek New Member

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    Well said. You would have had my applause. I probably would have countered with the question "Have YOU ever witnessed the "horrible" act of the rape or murder of an innocent person (especially child)?"
  8. Pat Hurley

    Pat Hurley Former Guest

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    I couldn't disagree more!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Don't show up for the debate, then you lose by forfeit. The conservative cause was never advanced by this kind of defensive, panty-waisted, weak-as-hell intellectual retreat.

    The very best advice I can give Pistol is "WWRD"... What Would Reagan Do? He wouldn't call in the thought police nor avoid the debate; he would take liberals head-on, with passion, clarity, and timeless truths.

    Let's get a spine folks. Time for a gut check. Open your boxers and check the sack for contents (Hint: conservatives don't have testicles the size of BB's). You win the hearts of people with loving engagement, reason, and facts, not fear, anger, and stammering communication.

    No wonder we're on the eve of an election disappointment. :(

    Pat Hurley
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2006
  9. durk

    durk New Member

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    Don't forget, when trying to debate a liberal and the said liberal feels they are starting to lose the debate (soon to be argument if not careful) be prepared for personal attacks and name calling. When they start to go down in flames the low road is all they know.
  10. LDBennett

    LDBennett Active Member

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    Pat Hurley:

    Confrontation in the work place is a good way to loose your job! Keep political debate in its proper forum. If it is discussion you want then do it away from the work place when both parties agree to discuss....not in front of your mailboxes at work! Anything you say at work could be used to get you fired. Not fair? It's called life and loosing a job is not worth making a hard stand on a political position, no matter the importance of that statement to you.

    Someone once said "Discretion is the better part of valor".

    LDBennett
  11. Xracer

    Xracer *TFF Admin Staff Mediator*

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    Minn-eeee-sota, ya, sure, you bet!
    Try here...

    http://deoxy.org/wc/wc-nurem.htm

    Principle VI
  12. Pat Hurley

    Pat Hurley Former Guest

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    WHO SAID ANYTHING ABOUT A "CONFRONTATION?!" I say thoughtfully, respectfully, and passionately refute nonsense while persuasively sharing your thoughts.

    And listen to what you've stated above - watch what you say in the workplace or you could get fired; loosing your job is not worth a hard stand on a political position, etc. This is a damned college campus!!!! The very place where intellectual exchanges of differeing views are SUPPOSED to occur!! Dear God is this world upside down!

    Cower in a corner if you wish to sir, and the rest of will do your bidding.

    WWRD.

    Pat Hurley
  13. LDBennett

    LDBennett Active Member

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    Pat Hurley:

    A college is still a work place for instructors and professors. The correct place for debate is in a forum not in front of the office mail boxes! All it takes is a bit of emotion in the work place (the college office) exchange or perhaps a loss in position by the other instructors and they are likely to file a complaint. Remember that their position was shaky at best and they wanted someone to agree with them. They were not looking for a debate. You debate and you look like the aggressor and you get the complaint filed against you. Colleges are no different than any other work place for employees. Formal debate in a structured arena is OK and probably is wanted by the administration but not in the instructors offices.

    I said if you want to debate offer it OFF campus on everyones free time. I did not say to bend over. The work place today is defined by very stiff rules, thanks to the lawyers, and a college employee is bound by those same rules that cover any large corporation for aggressive employee behavior. Right or wrong, it is just the facts of life in America today.

    LDBennett
  14. Pat Hurley

    Pat Hurley Former Guest

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    I note for the record that Pistol responded to incindiary remarks, he did not start a debate. But, what harm is there in a debate? If Pistol would have said to this misinformed clown that he thinks Miller Lite "tastes great," and his liberal opponent claims that its "less filling," has he violated some code of conduct, some rule that says "no one will ever disagree about anything?" This is absurd on its face.

    I have disagreements and debates with my colleagues and subordinates ALL THE TIME. Since when is this a violation of workplace boundaries and mores? Or are these special rules for liberal college campuses?

    Look, I don't recommend that anyone get into a "confrontation" anywhere. However, playing life on defense is a hell of a way to live. Nobody calls VP Cheney a war criminal to my face without getting a polite history lesson, a dissertation on the Constitution, and a short course on common sense. Now if that exchange causes me to be fired from my employment, I shouldn't have been working there in the first place. That's not freedom, that's not academic inquiry, and by God that's not America.

    My over arching point is this... freedom is preserved when brave men and women understand the risks and energetically defend freedom anyway. History is rife with stories of liberals converted over time because a conservative patiently and politely corrected their errors and shared a conservative view. Make no mistake - we are in a full fledged culture war. We can concede ground every day to these buffoons by simply not showing up to the critical debates, or we can boldly take on those who preach moral and ethical decay by standing toe to toe with their purveyors of foolishness and courageously preaching the glory of America and the prinicples upon which it was founded.

    I recoil at the suggestion that anyone should retreat from an intellectual fight for what is right, and good, and sacred, because of any rule that handcuffs polite debate.

    I remind you of George Washington's timeless wisdom... If free speech is abridged, than dumb and silent we shall go, like sheep to the slaughter.

    C'mon folks, let's start throwing haymakers and stop hiding under our blankets!!!!!!

    Pat Hurley
  15. glocknut

    glocknut New Member

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    can and do...have strange political ideas...on a regular basis!!!!!!!!! Not something to brag about Huck.... :D ;)

    mike
    gn
  16. LDBennett

    LDBennett Active Member

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    Pat Hurley:

    I see your point. I just warn that if you or anyone enter a workplace debate be sure to keep your cool and keep it from becoming confrontational. I personally would attempt to lightly debate a friend or a person I care about (someone who respects my viewpoint) at work but I certainly would not risk a couple as described for which I cared nothing about. People so left rarely move to the right so why waste the energy and risk it getting confrontational and risk anything job related. I just think that something like laying in wait armed with a bunch of facts (true, even) will turn confrontational quickly with this particular couple. I think I'd offer to go out to pizza and make an offer of a discussion. That is a better solution than the afore mention "lay in wait" scenerio. You see it will take more effort than just spouting of a bunch of facts and you have to weigh if it is really worth the effort if you don't even consider this couple worth it.

    Maybe my viewpoint will not work to help move the world to our way of thinking on this matter. I don't know, but I would wish not to let them jeopardize my job over it. Maybe I'm too worried about that but a job is a job and you must protect it if you want to eat. I'd just kiss the couple off as a lost cause, which I'd bet they are.

    LDBennett
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